JF-17 PFX program

[ziaulislam]

This entire project annoys the shit out of me. Sure, it can lead to major tech development for future fighter development, but something about it feels completely off.

Its going to fill pockets of generals and keep them employed thats about it

 

[TAC]

In principle everything you say is correct. Building indigenous capability should be the way forward. However, that should be practical too. We have to asses if building 4.5+ gen medium weight aircraft from scratch & totally new platform is going to be practically possible or not. I think he was referring to using JF-17 existing platform. This is very much achievable and I think PFX is basically not a medium weight aircraft but its using the same base platform as JF-17. So IMO, even indigenization & modernization of this platform is a good step and very much doable. One thing which I am not really sure about your statement is mentioning China "friend" and their help. Basically this whole exercise is to gain more independence. The PAF officers in IDEAS specially mentioned that we will have our own control on its radars, EW, and other equipment. I think China won't be helping Pakistan as a "friend" but only as a customer. There's a reason why we don't see PL-15e with JF-17s. I think whole PFX thing is to have ability to use own radars and own missiles. IMO, it will still be a 4.5+ gen fighter but same weight category as Jeffs.

With regard to Chinese help with PFX, people can have different views / opinions as nothing can be proved. Personally I look around at IDEAS 24 and see product after product that is iether licence built Chinese product or at least got very strong Chinese heritage. The same PAF officers say that every one of these products are ‘indigenous’. Truth is most of them won’t exist without China’s generous help. Now I’m not disputing that Pakistan wants its own control on its radars as well as much as possible on everything else on the PFX but that doesn’t mean they won’t need and get help from China to get to that position. So far Pakistan has not been stupid enough to try to reinvent the wheel ( unlike some others) when they have a friend like China willing and able to help them and I don’t think they are going to start doing that now with the PFX. If Pakistan is going to make a success of this thing, they will need substantial help, I was going to say all roads lead to China but in this case, the only road leads to China but it’s a well trodded road & Pakistan is well experienced in the route.

 

[Oscar]

This entire project annoys the shit out of me. Sure, it can lead to major tech development for future fighter development, but something about it feels completely off.

Umm - maybe because its being managed and led in what seems like a self fluff and buff motivated manner?

 

[Neocloud]

An advanced two-seat light fighter is the current gap in the international market. China's current most advanced trainer is the JL-10. but its development has been slow due to Guiyang's strength.

Isn't Hongdu working on something like that based on the JL-10? At least according to the patents they filed.

A more 'stealthy' 2-seat advanced trainer/light fighter, it's still 2 engines though.

 

[FuturePAF]

They will. Pakistan already had good working group with Saudis, UAE and Qatar can also be brought on board

Then Pakistan needs to move fast and get a prototype in the air in the next 2-3 years. There are a lot of competitors and the GCC countries seem open to buy from anyone these days.

 

[FuturePAF]

Pakistani version of fat amy

This is if they stick to a “stealthy” JF-17 evolutionary design, instead of a more clean sheet, true stealthy design that leaves room for an internal bay and rearrangement of the air duct.

The PAF was on the right track, in my amateur opinion for what it’s worth, studying the YF-23. We need to remember the French FCAS design has elements similar to the YF-23.

We need a revolutionary design that allows much lower weight and higher maneuverability, which makes the design competitive with designs like the F-35, Su-57, and any 4/4.5 gen fighter.

 

[FuturePAF]

Isn't Hongdu working on something like that based on the JL-10? At least according to the patents they filed.

A more 'stealthy' 2-seat advanced trainer/light fighter, it's still 2 engines though.


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This is why the PAF needs a “fifth gen ready” single engine trainer. Designers should assume the WS-19 at 110-115 kn, and build a design around that engine.

Commonality with the J-35A’s engine will give the design a competitive advantage, lower cost and export potential in the global south.

 

[ziaulislam]

This is if they stick to a “stealthy” JF-17 evolutionary design, instead of a more clean sheet, true stealthy design that leaves room for an internal bay and rearrangement of the air duct.

The PAF was on the right track, in my amateur opinion for what it’s worth, studying the YF-23. We need to remember the French FCAS design has elements similar to the YF-23.

We need a revolutionary design that allows much lower weight and higher maneuverability, which makes the design competitive with designs like the F-35, Su-57, and any 4/4.5 gen fighter.

Whats a stealthy jf17?
Paf should stop beating around bush and get on kaan jet as a jv, if they arent letting paf then do a twim engine stealth

 

[MastanKhan]

This is if they stick to a “stealthy” JF-17 evolutionary design, instead of a more clean sheet, true stealthy design that leaves room for an internal bay and rearrangement of the air duct.

The PAF was on the right track, in my amateur opinion for what it’s worth, studying the YF-23. We need to remember the French FCAS design has elements similar to the YF-23.

We need a revolutionary design that allows much lower weight and higher maneuverability, which makes the design competitive with designs like the F-35, Su-57, and any 4/4.5 gen fighter.

Hi,

Fat Amy is a monster in her true self---when it flies at 45000 feet. Just like a whale in the deep ocean---.

That is what my suggestion for the JF17 PFX was.

For members who were on the old forum would remember how I commented on the JF17 about 17-18 years ago to be about 25% larger than what it is---.

At the end of the day-- darting quick right or left won't be much help if your sensors can't hold upto the enemy EW pkg. The HOBS will get you---.

Why did the air force personal explained now what the aircraft was---he did it because the aircraft is pretty much ready now---.

The level of technology in the PFX would be very keenly watched---. It will put the Rafale at a total disadvantage---.

Pakistan zindabad---

 

[MastanKhan]

Whats a stealthy jf17?
Paf should stop beating around bush and get on kaan jet as a jv, if they arent letting paf then do a twim engine stealth

Hi,

Kaan 'jet' is about 10-15 years away---.

For the PAF, PFX is the best local option---.

The Turks are not going to put a half ar-sed version of the Kaan in the air just like that---.

If such was the case---they would not have gone for the eurofighter---.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

Fat Amy is a monster in her true self---.

That is what my recommendation for the JF17 PFX is.

For members who were on the old forum would remember how I commented on the JF17 about 17-18 years ago to be about 25% larger than what it is---.

At the end of the day-- darting quick right or left won't be much help if your sensors can't hold upto the enemy EW pkg. The HOBS will get you---.

Why did the air force personal explained now what the aircraft was---he did it because the aircraft is pretty much ready now---.

The level of technology in the PFX would be very keenly watched---. It will put the Rafale at a total disadvantage---.

Pakistan zindabad---

Yes we remember, and agreed. At the time, there wasn’t an engine on the horizon that could fill the role and still be a light fighter.

The problem is the 25% larger JF-17 moves into the medium category, requiring a WS-10B engine at the very least, and closing in on the market share of the J-10 at the time and now the J-35.

A fighter in the upper end of light weight, has a lot of potential buyers, especially the Chinese, which would convince a lot of foreign buyers to buy the design, similar to modern day F-7. It’s not so much as making the plane bigger, as it is to be lighter (and a bit taller).

We need a fighter that is lighter; with an empty weight of about 14,000 lbs (~6364 kg) to 16,720 lb (7600 kg) and a 75 kn (16,666 lb) dry thrust and 116 KN (25,778 lb) max thrust WS-19 engine. A very agile design, that is low RCS, low IR signature, high TWR ratio, and can carry 4 BVR and 2 IR internally, would be a game changer. I have a design in mind, that fits these parameters if my math is right, mostly drawn out, but I rather not share in on the open forum.

 

[Michael]

Isn't Hongdu working on something like that based on the JL-10? At least according to the patents they filed.
A more 'stealthy' 2-seat advanced trainer/light fighter, it's still 2 engines though.

Oh, I'm so sorry. I hadn't seen anything like those reports before.

I had thought about a JF-17 follow-on version using a similar scheme to the JL-10 with two WS-17 engines.
The WS-17 is a newly developed small thrust turbofan engine that is targeted at the JL-10 and UAVs. the JL-10 Air Force version (earlier batches) still uses the AL222 engine due to the large number of AL222 engines procured earlier, but the Navy version of the JL-10 (latest batches) has started to use the WS-17 engine. Many UAVs also use the WS-17 engine.
If the future upgrade program for the JL-10 is something similar to the JF-17 BX version I described earlier, it will be very attractive to many small and medium sized countries.

However, I don't think Pakistan will accept the JF-17 upgrade program with two WS-17 engines.

 

[That_Guy]

Umm - maybe because its being managed and led in what seems like a self fluff and buff motivated manner?

You're probably right, but pakistan's MIC has a history of over promising and underdelivering.

 

[MirageBlue]

Yes. I do think that the follow-on development of the JF-17 should be in the direction of an advanced two-seat light (near-medium) fighter. On the one hand it could provide poorer countries with the ability to approximate 5th gen fighters, and also provide other countries with true 5th gen trainers. At the same time, it fulfills the future UCAV system plans of some countries.

Most importantly, Pakistan must not have a conflict of interest with its partners' target markets. Be it China or Turkey or any other country that is in a position to provide help to Pakistan.

An advanced two-seat light fighter is the current gap in the international market. China's current most advanced trainer is the JL-10. but its development has been slow due to Guiyang's strength. Pakistan can seize this time gap and grab this blank market in China as soon as possible. Once AVIC increases its investment in Guiyang, China's stealth version of the trainer will appear soon. By that time, there will be no more of this huge market.

TAI just flew the second prototype of the Hurjet that it hopes will be the two seat light fighter trainer for the international market. I doubt it will want to see competition in a field that already has the KAI FA-50 and Boeing T-7A, which will spawn a light fighter variant most likely.

 

[Zarvan]

Then Pakistan needs to move fast and get a prototype in the air in the next 2-3 years. There are a lot of competitors and the GCC countries seem open to buy from anyone these days.

It's not must they would finance it only if they also want to buy it. If they fund our program we can give them lot of benefits in future. Yes the jet itself would be one benefit, secondly technology we can give, thirdly it would also reduce blackmailing of west even if they want to buy western weapons, and many more factors.