JF-17 PFX program

[Ak01]

Hi,

I have been away from the forum for a few days INTENTIONALLALLY.

People think that defense equipment---its procurement and information related to it--- is displayed on public venues---actually it is not people---but only ONE main poster & some other sub posters.

I mentioned about a month / month and half ago---that people will be shocked at what is coming out for the military in a little while.

Last week---they got a massive shut up call---and I hope other posters enjoyed the new product line.

First it was the Zhuhai air show---and then later on the Ideas 24 smashed the ball out of the ball park and that ball is screaming thru the night skies like a banshee---.

I hope it has shut the mouths of those who wanted proof of everything---they got the proof and more of it.

If I have bragged a little bit at times---oh well---.

If a few new munitions are all you had to scream about then i wouldnt be flexing it too hard. Bare in mind we've known about these radars for 3+ years...

 

[PakAl]

Would it be beneficial for Pakistan to spend billions on a new 4.5th generation plane when J10c a 4.5th generation plane is available and we also have inducted it in small numbers. We will also have the 5th generation J35s available in a few years time. For myself despite all the optimism shown, I can't see Pakistan building a 4.5th generation medium weight plane, they can modify Jf17 if its possible or upgrade it in to block 4.

 

[MastanKhan]

If a few new munitions are all you had to scream about then i wouldnt be flexing it too hard. Bare in mind we've known about these radars for 3+ years...

Hi,

If you understood ENGLISH---you would have realized that the post was not meant for those "who knew"---.

It was meant for those who wanted a news release or written proof of everything---.

Please don't pi-ss in the wind.

 

[Ak01]

Hi,

If you understood ENGLISH---you would have realized that the post was not meant for those "who knew"---.

It was meant for those who wanted a news release or written proof of everything---.

Please don't pi-ss in the wind.

considering the radars were at the pak day parade, youd have a better chance at screaming off the top of your old, wrinkly lungs in some village somewhere

 

[TAC]

Would it be beneficial for Pakistan to spend billions on a new 4.5th generation plane when J10c a 4.5th generation plane is available and we also have inducted it in small numbers. We will also have the 5th generation J35s available in a few years time. For myself despite all the optimism shown, I can't see Pakistan building a 4.5th generation medium weight plane, they can modify Jf17 if its possible or upgrade it in to block 4.

There is a strong argument for building indigenous capability rather than buying everything off the shelf. Putting strategic considerations aside how much cheaper would it be to produce and maintain your own equipment as opposed buying from others and relying on them for lifetime support/ upgrades etc? Also potential for export earnings? In terms of can they do it, they started with the Mushak, then K8, then JF-17 all with considerable foreign help and all successful projects. So with assistance from friends like China, what makes u say they can’t take the next logical step?

 

[RAJPUT]

There is a strong argument for building indigenous capability rather than buying everything off the shelf. Putting strategic considerations aside how much cheaper would it be to produce and maintain your own equipment as opposed buying from others and relying on them for lifetime support/ upgrades etc? Also potential for export earnings? In terms of can they do it, they started with the Mushak, then K8, then JF-17 all with considerable foreign help and all successful projects. So with assistance from friends like China, what makes u say they can’t take the next logical step?

Apart from GIDS, I have yet to see a Pakistani company present a fully 100% indigenous ‘system’ or an iteration of a foreign sourced system.

 

[Sami_1]

The subject of the Pakistani JF-17 PFX aircraft is not complicated, but rather simpler than some imagine. The aircraft will be parallel to the Indian LCA TEJAS MK2 aircraft in capabilities. Simply put, the Pakistani side will develop a local radar parallel to the Indian UTTAM radar. If it does not surpass it, Pakistan will receive Turkish or Italian support regarding the radar, avionics package, and advanced electronic warfare. The specifications will be a better structure parallel to the current generation of technologies, i.e. a structure with a proportion greater than 50% of composite materials. The engine will have a capacity of up to 110KN. Therefore, what will Pakistan offer in terms of a new design for the structure and the aircraft, even if it is light? This is what we will clarify for this matter. The payload is simply in a more advanced structure made of composite materials. It will provide an additional load of 1 ton, and in the case of a thrust force of 110KN, the aircraft may have a load of 1.5 more compared to the version. JF-17BLOCK III. Speed 1.8-2 Mach. The aircraft's performance will be close to the Chinese aircraft J-10CE but with a slightly smaller fuselage

So the Pakistanis are very good at developing a more advanced and modern design

The Pakistanis are currently benefiting from successive small export deals. It is expected that Pakistan will export 40 aircraft to African and Asian countries by 2030 of the JF-17BLOCK III model

These contracts will provide Algerian funding for the development program. Pakistan will get rid of huge numbers of Mirage-5 & J-7 aircraft and will not be able to reach a ratio of 1:2 due to the large numbers that will be taken out of service, whether from the J-10CE aircraft or the J-3AE aircraft. So redesigning the fuselage will be a decisive factor even in the availability of future exports of the aircraft and to attract customers with higher financing capacity to purchase

 

[EternalMortal]

But that weak leadership isn't really running it like a technology park is it? Why is the technology park developing radars, loitering munitions, and PFX? There is no private company inside NASTP doing this. So to me the technology park part of NASTP is just words.

NSTP actually does run like a technology park.

It's Pakistan. There's almost always a twist. NASTP was created after they were brought down to reality and realized they couldn't make FGFA. It's for PAF's needs 1st and foremost.

However, it is still a research park. RPs are not businesses. They are more akin to universities. Vast majority of them are set up by governments and public institutions. It's the private sector that requires public sector to take the lead here.

You cannot run them like a business. They don't make any profit themselves. Their goal is to create an ecosystem that advances R&D and help/create businesses with the technology created in the park. They technically don't even require private companies to be working there. Turning NASTP into a company would defeat its whole purpose.

Also, if we're being pedantic, it's not like there's zero private companies or non-defense research being done there. Once PAF sees some success and NASTP is more established, private companies will be more keen on working there.

 

[Deino]

Hi,

I have been away from the forum for a few days INTENTIONALLALLY.

People think that defense equipment---its procurement and information related to it--- is displayed on public venues---actually it is not people---but only ONE main poster & some other sub posters.

I mentioned about a month / month and half ago---that people will be shocked at what is coming out for the military in a little while.

Last week---they got a massive shut up call---and I hope other posters enjoyed the new product line.

First it was the Zhuhai air show---and then later on the Ideas 24 smashed the ball out of the ball park and that ball is screaming thru the night skies like a banshee---.

I hope it has shut the mouths of those who wanted proof of everything---they got the proof and more of it.

If I have bragged a little bit at times---oh well---.

No, in fact we didn‘t get any proof and the Zhuhai Airshow in now way proved anything that you claimed … but hey, here we are again with a lot of noise and no content besides the same insults!

 

[Michael]

Exactly. As you can see the post by @JamD that I provided the link for. They treat it as a super secret and classified facility. But there are small signs of change with newer generation (hopefully).

I think JamD also mentioned of them selling some wind tunnel time to local companies albeit owned by the military. They could also allow local companies to access it rather than it rusting away.

Having a supersonic wind tunnel is one of the basic requirements for designing a fighter jet. Next, we need to focus on the relevant supercomputer. It is another basic condition for the design of modern fighter jets. Of course, it also includes a sufficient number of excellent professionals.

In modern industrial society, any final product needs extremely strong behind-the-scenes support. Complete independent design or independent construction is not something that can be realized by a slogan, still less is it a problem that can be solved by politicians shouting loudly.

Let's try to disassemble a complete fighter jet, let's try to analyze every single component, let's try to analyze what it takes to build them. They include the production of raw materials, the manufacturing conditions of the process, and so on. And then work backwards to speculate on what Pakistan currently has and what it still doesn't have. We try to help Pakistan to solve these problems step by step. ------ This is the right approach.

For example:
China uses a monolithic forging and monolithic machining process in the manufacture of the fuselage of its 5th generation fighter jets. It results in the J-20's empty weight being several tons lighter than that of the F-22. This is thanks to the fact that China has built the world's largest super-heavy forging machine. It helped China achieve monolithic forging and molding in building the J-20's titanium main frame.
For the construction of the rest of the airframe, China made extensive use of titanium 3D printing. This is one of the major reasons why Pakistan is currently unable to build the J-35 production line.

 

[Michael]

If PAF sticks and continues with it and after listening to what that Air Force officer said in the interview I won't be surprised if it turns out something like this.
View attachment 83408

This concept art was leaked by an official Pakistani agency? Or was it designed by military fans themselves?

It is very beautiful.

However, it is too detached from the reality of the JF-17. There is no possibility of its realization.

 

[Zarvan]

This concept art was leaked by an official Pakistani agency? Or was it designed by military fans themselves?

It is very beautiful.

However, it is too detached from the reality of the JF-17. There is no possibility of its realization.

It was fanboy stuff initially and now it's my guess that 4.5 + thing could mean this kind of thing.

 

[FuturePAF]

Would it be beneficial for Pakistan to spend billions on a new 4.5th generation plane when J10c a 4.5th generation plane is available and we also have inducted it in small numbers. We will also have the 5th generation J35s available in a few years time. For myself despite all the optimism shown, I can't see Pakistan building a 4.5th generation medium weight plane, they can modify Jf17 if its possible or upgrade it in to block 4.

The PAF knows the limits of the JF-17 airframe/design, the engine, and its lifespan.

It needs to plan now for the replacement of the JF-17.

With the WS-19 on the horizon, and a lot of the stealth maintenance facilities already going to be built to support the J-35A acquisition, alongside all the knowledge of airframe shaping from the J-35 program, planning for a higher performance aircraft that is competitive, even in a world with more 5th Gen aircraft will mean the PAC kamra factory will have a product to sell on the international market no other competitor has planned to fill the niche; light (nearly) stealth fighter. Btw, this is a niche comes up a the limits of a “light” fighter, if the WS-19’s final max thrust is in the 116 kn range as some claim. That is more than F-16A models and not that far off F-16C engine thrusts. With a light enough design, the kinematic performance coupled with advanced sensors, weapons, and low signatures, will make the design competitive, perhaps even against high end potential opponents such as the Su-57, AMCA, and possibly F-35.

It’s likely the sales may even cover a lot of PAF’s own acquisition. The knowledge and experience will also give the PAF /PAC engineers something more to contribute to the KAAN project.

So the Pakistani aerospace ecosystem will be in a virtuous cycle.

 

[FuturePAF]

It was fanboy stuff initially and now it's my guess that 4.5 + thing could mean this kind of thing.

4.5+ probably means stealth, but instead of a weapons bay, it will just have recessed head points. Hopefully they find a way to add an internal weapons bay to maximize the utility of the design.

Hopefully it will follow the pathway of the KF-21, semi-recessed in the first block and a true internal bay down the line.

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[Michael]

It was fanboy stuff initially and now it's my guess that 4.5 + thing could mean this kind of thing.

IMO. it's hardly likely.

The JF-17 is a light fighter, that's what it's based on. If you move away from that base and upgrade the JF-17 to a medium fighter, it will clash with the J-10CE. Are you sure CAC is willing to help PAC upgrade the JF-17 to a medium fighter to create commercial competition with its own J-10CE? Even Turkey would not be willing to provide such help. Pakistan is not in a position to do this project on its own at the moment.

The most important feature of a 4.5 or 5 generation fighter is the advanced avionics system. These advanced avionics systems consume a lot of electrical energy. Almost all current generation 4.5 or 5 fighters use twin-engine medium/large thrust engines (the F-35 uses a single-engine large thrust engine), which, in addition to providing propulsive power for the fighters, provide a large amount of electrical energy for the avionics system. A single-engine medium-thrust engine cannot generate enough power. If a twin-engine medium thrust engine is used, please refer to the previous paragraph.