JF-17 PFX program

[Bilal]

Thank you very much. ------ Due to GFW, I can't access many English websites directly, which leads to a lack of access to certain information.

The upper limit of the wind tunnel is the upper limit of the speed study of the vehicle. Although most research problems can now be solved by computer simulation, traditional wind tunnel research is more conducive to reducing research risk. Having these wind tunnels will be more beneficial for Pakistan's research work in this area.

In this case it’s less about GFW and more about the extreme secretive nature of Pakistan’s defence organization.

They have stemmed out of the nuclear program and keep everything very secret. We have never seen any pictures or articles on what facilities and capabilities NESCOM/NDC has.

 

[Michael]

In this case it’s less about GFW and more about the extreme secretive nature of Pakistan’s defence organization.

They have stemmed out of the nuclear program and keep everything very secret. We have never seen any pictures or articles on what facilities and capabilities NESCOM/NDC has.

LOL. this is totally unnecessary. The wind tunnels themselves are not classified information, the subjects studied inside them are.

There is a low-speed wind tunnel built by China Aerodynamics Research and Development Center (CARDC) for public recreation in the park across the street from my house. Anyone can go in and experience it at will.
CARDC's wind tunnel complex is open to the public. Any business can apply to use their wind tunnel facilities. Some powerful companies in China also have their own low-speed wind tunnels. The popularization of these facilities greatly accelerates China's industrial construction. For example, automobiles, high-speed railroads, flying machines, etc. Of course, these wind tunnel facilities also simulate hurricane winds and are used to test the design of large buildings such as high-rise buildings and bridges.
Only hypersonic wind tunnels in China will have some restrictions on foreign use applications. However, Pakistan should not have these restrictions.

Hopefully, Pakistan will also open up these facilities so that Pakistani companies can use them as well.

 

[Bilal]

LOL. this is totally unnecessary. The wind tunnels themselves are not classified information, the subjects studied inside them are.

There is a low-speed wind tunnel built by China Aerodynamics Research and Development Center (CARDC) for public recreation in the park across the street from my house. Anyone can go in and experience it at will.
CARDC's wind tunnel complex is open to the public. Any business can apply to use their wind tunnel facilities. Some powerful companies in China also have their own low-speed wind tunnels. The popularization of these facilities greatly accelerates China's industrial construction. For example, automobiles, high-speed railroads, flying machines, etc. Of course, these wind tunnel facilities also simulate hurricane winds and are used to test the design of large buildings such as high-rise buildings and bridges.
Only hypersonic wind tunnels in China will have some restrictions on foreign use applications. However, Pakistan should not have these restrictions.

Hopefully, Pakistan will also open up these facilities so that Pakistani companies can use them as well.

Exactly. As you can see the post by @JamD that I provided the link for. They treat it as a super secret and classified facility. But there are small signs of change with newer generation (hopefully).

 

[Goku-Kun]

Have a look at the slides that show the path.

1. Larger share of Blk3 production (it’s currently sitting at some 60% local share)

2. Upgraded Blk-3(called PFX Alpha) & Local update of Block-2

3. PFX (in house Block-4 of JF-17 with modified larger airframe)

What is also not mentioned is CATIC is VERY keen and trying to add to JF-17 local production in Pakistan because it wants its own capacity to focus on next gen products for China and repurpose the facilities it currently is using for JF-17.

CATIC has hinted to PAC on a “deadline” to stop supporting JF-17 at the current level and reduce its share

so they are basically trying to upgrade JF-17 to F-16 and J-10 standards both in terms of avionics and a medium weight airframe?

 

[TAC]

so they are basically trying to upgrade JF-17 to F-16 and J-10 standards both in terms of avionics and a medium weight airframe?

The PAF official referred to it as ‘4.5 plus’ generation fighter, so I can only assume that they’re aiming for something more capable than these platforms, at least in some respects, but not quite upto 5th generation? Just my interpretation based on what they’ve said so far.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

It will be a advanced 4gen fighter with the DNA of 5G. With Block III, journey has begun in that direction already. Even in the US, all key technologies related to avionics were first tested on F-16s during Raptor program minus those which were exclusive to that program.

 

[JamD]

How about taking the opposite approach. Let NASTP be a money sink, but let it incubate Pakistani aerospace talent for more established SOE (e.g., NESCOM) and, potentially, private sector companies to adopt once said talent matures?

NESCOM seems to be expanding via bunch of companies like Stingray Technologies. There's scope there for a wellspring of programs that may not be as "scorty" prone due to the commercial nature of the NESCOM-spawn companies (which are, by design, meant to be more flexible and connectable with the industry).

Couple of problems with that:
1. That is exactly what people were doing in the Azm days: waiting at PAC until they got hired at SPD. So NASTP has introduced 5 year bonds just to prevent this from happening.
2. All of these Qaswa type companies have the purpose that their employees aren't traditional sarkari employees with pensions. This is to save money and improve performance but this makes these places less attractive to a lot of people looking for job security. This will further reduce talent flow from NASTP to Qaswa for example.

I think the biggest driving force for NASTP is going to be PFX, which is entirely driven by the motivation to keep the JF-17 factory running as we have discussed ad nauseam. This might be enough motivation to actually not end up like Azm.

 

[RAJPUT]

LOL. this is totally unnecessary. The wind tunnels themselves are not classified information, the subjects studied inside them are.

There is a low-speed wind tunnel built by China Aerodynamics Research and Development Center (CARDC) for public recreation in the park across the street from my house. Anyone can go in and experience it at will.
CARDC's wind tunnel complex is open to the public. Any business can apply to use their wind tunnel facilities. Some powerful companies in China also have their own low-speed wind tunnels. The popularization of these facilities greatly accelerates China's industrial construction. For example, automobiles, high-speed railroads, flying machines, etc. Of course, these wind tunnel facilities also simulate hurricane winds and are used to test the design of large buildings such as high-rise buildings and bridges.
Only hypersonic wind tunnels in China will have some restrictions on foreign use applications. However, Pakistan should not have these restrictions.

Hopefully, Pakistan will also open up these facilities so that Pakistani companies can use them as well.

I think JamD also mentioned of them selling some wind tunnel time to local companies albeit owned by the military. They could also allow local companies to access it rather than it rusting away.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I have been away from the forum for a few days INTENTIONALLALLY.

People think that defense equipment---its procurement and information related to it--- is displayed on public venues---actually it is not people---but only ONE main poster & some other sub posters.

I mentioned about a month / month and half ago---that people will be shocked at what is coming out for the military in a little while.

Last week---they got a massive shut up call---and I hope other posters enjoyed the new product line.

First it was the Zhuhai air show---and then later on the Ideas 24 smashed the ball out of the ball park and that ball is screaming thru the night skies like a banshee---.

I hope it has shut the mouths of those who wanted proof of everything---they got the proof and more of it.

If I have bragged a little bit at times---oh well---.

 

[EternalMortal]

Hot Take (for me at least): NASTP can actually revolutionize Pakistan's aerospace sector. Even if the babus are inexperienced, they have hired so many engineers that this young and freely thinking talent will be able to eventually do a lot of things. Impressive things.

BUT there's a big caveat. Like all gov institutions, this success will be possible if NASTP gets a generation of motivated, smart, and pragmatic leadership that knows how to utilize this talent.

This is the weakest link in this whole endeavor. If, however, NASTP was run like a business with the objective to sell products and services, then it's succes will be less at the mercy of lucking into good leadership.

Weak leadership aside, it's a technology park. It's not supposed to run like a business. You throw money at it & see what sticks while building your knowledge economy aka R&D capacity, commercialization experience, legal knowledge, best practices, etc. Whatever is ready for commercialization, you spin it off into a company & THAT is supposed to run like a business.

Also (my own hot take incoming), I know NASTP gets a lot of hate skepticism here as a thinly veiled real estate land grab (I'm guilty of it myself), but part of being a technology park really is building a nice place to live and work. Don't think of them as businesses but as mini cities (or really big university) unto themselves. The Research Triangle in NC is one example.

edit: After reading, further, I just realized @Quwa @Bilal touched upon this as well

 

[Zarvan]

If PAF sticks and continues with it and after listening to what that Air Force officer said in the interview I won't be surprised if it turns out something like this.

 

[Sparten]

Couple of problems with that:
1. That is exactly what people were doing in the Azm days: waiting at PAC until they got hired at SPD. So NASTP has introduced 5 year bonds just to prevent this from happening.
2. All of these Qaswa type companies have the purpose that their employees aren't traditional sarkari employees with pensions. This is to save money and improve performance but this makes these places less attractive to a lot of people looking for job security. This will further reduce talent flow from NASTP to Qaswa for example.

I think the biggest driving force for NASTP is going to be PFX, which is entirely driven by the motivation to keep the JF-17 factory running as we have discussed ad nauseam. This might be enough motivation to actually not end up like Azm.

Qaswa and others like WooT tech are run by former PAC/NDC/NESCOM types. There has been a concentrated policy to diversify into the private sector. Qaswa is making REK series whichn AWC was.

 

[Haji Thanos]

It’s safe to assume that this is PFX program.l and not the other fancy airframes?


View attachment 82769

View attachment 82770

this seems to be JF17MLU in this case JF17OCU like ROSE

 

[TAC]

If PAF sticks and continues with it and after listening to what that Air Force officer said in the interview I won't be surprised if it turns out something like this.
View attachment 83408

While I don’t have any respect / time for channels like inshort, I would agree that if successful this type of design is possible based on what we know so far. ‘4.5 Gen plus’

 

[JamD]

Weak leadership aside, it's a technology park. It's not supposed to run like a business. You throw money at it & see what sticks while building your knowledge economy aka R&D capacity, commercialization experience, legal knowledge, best practices, etc. Whatever is ready for commercialization, you spin it off into a company & THAT is supposed to run like a business.

Also (my own hot take incoming), I know NASTP gets a lot of hate skepticism here as a thinly veiled real estate land grab (I'm guilty of it myself), but part of being a technology park really is building a nice place to live and work. Don't think of them as businesses but as mini cities (or really big university) unto themselves. The Research Triangle in NC is one example.

edit: After reading, further, I just realized @Quwa @Bilal touched upon this as well

But that weak leadership isn't really running it like a technology park is it? Why is the technology park developing radars, loitering munitions, and PFX? There is no private company inside NASTP doing this. So to me the technology park part of NASTP is just words.

NSTP actually does run like a technology park.

Qaswa and others like WooT tech are run by former PAC/NDC/NESCOM types. There has been a concentrated policy to diversify into the private sector. Qaswa is making REK series whichn AWC was.

Not sure how that is a response to what I said.

Also, to put Qaswa and Woot Tech into one group is unfair. Qaswa is wholly run by AWC, albeit in a separate facility. It is trying to look like a private company. Woot Tech is a genuinely private company.