JF-17 PFX program

[Qadeer chaudary]

Suggest you watch the seminar and interviews with PAF officials before jumping to your preconceived conclusions, rooted in deep butt hurt.

Maybe watch seminars of 2017 on azm and various slide presentations. A program can be kept secret but you cannot keep the industrial capacity of a country as secret
PFX at the end will be jf 17 block 4
They can and should reach 5 ton plus payload with ws 13, ws 21 available with thrust from 97 to 107 kn and far better technology and reliability than Rd 93 owing to Chinese cutting edge manufacturing ability
Plus they will go for many local systems such as radar ew suite pods AA missiles because even block three had Chinese tech developed in early part of this century e.g. GaS radar

 

[PakShaheen_79]

Hot Take (for me at least): NASTP can actually revolutionize Pakistan's aerospace sector. Even if the babus are inexperienced, they have hired so many engineers that this young and freely thinking talent will be able to eventually do a lot of things. Impressive things.

BUT there's a big caveat. Like all gov institutions, this success will be possible if NASTP gets a generation of motivated, smart, and pragmatic leadership that knows how to utilize this talent.

This is the weakest link in this whole endeavor. If, however, NASTP was run like a business with the objective to sell products and services, then it's succes will be less at the mercy of lucking into good leadership.

I think the entire bluer print of NATSP and now PMSTP is based on success stories of Turkish defence industry and Prof. Ismail Demir also said that in the Q n A session. So, if this thing can be pursued like our strategic program, some results are possible. I don't know what exactly was in Hall 8 @IDEAS 2024 which was referred many times by NATSP head in his speech which was there as a proof of NATSP's 3 year R 7 D through these young people.

 

[Ak01]

Hot Take (for me at least): NASTP can actually revolutionize Pakistan's aerospace sector. Even if the babus are inexperienced, they have hired so many engineers that this young and freely thinking talent will be able to eventually do a lot of things. Impressive things.

BUT there's a big caveat. Like all gov institutions, this success will be possible if NASTP gets a generation of motivated, smart, and pragmatic leadership that knows how to utilize this talent.

This is the weakest link in this whole endeavor. If, however, NASTP was run like a business with the objective to sell products and services, then it's succes will be less at the mercy of lucking into good leadership.

i had to do a double take

 

[PakShaheen_79]

Maybe watch seminars of 2017 on azm and various slide presentations. A program can be kept secret but you cannot keep the industrial capacity of a country as secret
PFX at the end will be jf 17 block 4
They can and should reach 5 ton plus payload with ws 13, ws 21 available with thrust from 97 to 107 kn and far better technology and reliability than Rd 93 owing to Chinese cutting edge manufacturing ability
Plus they will go for many local systems such as radar ew suite pods AA missiles because even block three had Chinese tech developed in early part of this century e.g. GaS radar

If we look across the border, HAL and DRDO has much better technical know how and almost many fold bigger R&D budget still the date of Tejas MK II serial production is around 2029 and it can easily slip towards 2031~32. Problem is back in 2017, PAF just got awake to the reality that no country will share next gen technologies (Not talking about complete aircraft). Industrial control is the real game. India, like Pakistan, is also after that and both countries have a lot of catching up. Announcing Azm was super ambitious but if I play devil's advocate here, did PAF announced any deadline for this thing back then? I think some realization was there back then hence Aviation City @ PAC was launched. Now, it is not even single decade completed since that announcement and we want a fully completed 5 gen fighter rolling out of PAC. I think in all honesty, we are getting way too ahead of ourselves. PFX is a logical, rational and incremental step in that direction. A complete Azm like fighter is IMPOSSIBLE without going through a PFX like evolution. Now if we look at bigger picture, PAF has a lot in its plate. It has to deter a much bigger and richer AF in the East and South (thanks to IN's aircraft carrier) and at the same time, it has to come up with a working pragmatic plan to get sustained local R&D programs running. This dual challenge explain why there is J-35 acquisition and why there is PFX at the same time. Considering kartoots of our elite (PAF's top brass included) believe you me, this is like pulling off a miracle out of no where. So, we need to be little optimistic here without pausing our voice against corruption and misdeeds with in PAF.

 

[JamD]

I think the entire bluer print of NATSP and now PMSTP is based on success stories of Turkish defence industry and Prof. Ismail Demir also said that in the Q n A session. So, if this thing can be pursued like our strategic program, some results are possible. I don't know what exactly was in Hall 8 @IDEAS 2024 which was referred many times by NATSP head in his speech which was there as a proof of NATSP's 3 year R 7 D through these young people.

Yes keep in mind the Turkish model runs all of that as a business, which is one of the key things I'm pointing to.

 

[JamD]

i had to do a double take

I'm trying to be less negative lol

 

[Ak01]

I'm trying to be less negative lol

i do see some positive movement this ideas, alot of the firms are working with eachother now as opposed to individually, i guess some progress is there. They are starting to behave like companies with business interests somewhat

 

[Quwa]

I think NASTP and PMSTP cause some unnecessary friction and division in our defence industry leadership and management.

The Turks set up the SSB (formerly SSM) to be the chief director and top regulatory agent of all defence industry activity in the country, be it through state-owned enterprises (SOE) or the private sector.

SSB isn't a political ministry, but the voice of the Turkish military in the defence industry scene. The key, however, is that the SSB's managed by defence industry professionals, from R&D leaders (like Dr. Ismail Demir) to business leaders to financial leaders. Basically, the military leadership in Turkey doesn't get involved in the weeds; it tells the SSB about the direction, and the SSB basically manages the rest.

Under the SSB, you get the SOEs and private sector, which then have to compete for SSB contracts in order to secure R&D funding and orders.

IMO the issue with NASTP and PMSTP is that you have parallel set ups that aren't managed by industry professionals. So, there's redundancy and a mismatch between the leadership and the work they need to be doing.

Now, to be fair, this isn't a Pakistan-only problem. Auditors are finding some insane stuff about the Pentagon and its management too. So, to expect smooth sailing in a super-large organization with lots of money and established voices is unrealistic.

 

[Michael]

Frankly, I still don't understand the purpose and significance of "PFX program".

I analyze it from the perspective of what Chinese people do.

If it were a highly confidential program, then we would not know about the existence of "PFX Program", and even the letters “PFX” would not be known to the public. It is not until it appears on the runway that people will know of its existence.
If it is a program that can be moderately publicized, then we can at least know some basic information. But there seems to be a serious lack of such non-confidential basic information at the moment.

1. The information on the PDF is not the same. Is it “JF-17 PFX” or “PFX”? This will determine whether China participates in the program or not. ------ “JF-17” is a cooperative program jointly owned by China and Pakistan. “JF-17 PFX” means China is definitely involved; ‘PFX’ means China may not be involved. Based on the realities, it is not possible for Pakistan to complete the PFX Program on its own. Pakistan can seek cooperation with Turkey alone or with China alone. However, cooperation among the three countries “Pakistan+China+Turkey” is out of the question.

2. What are the objectives pursued by Pakistan? ------ build its own independent fighter jets? Or to design and build its own fighter aircraft independently? ------ Realistically, it seems that both goals are unlikely to be realized for current Pakistan. I have always been in favor of Pakistan establishing its own fighter industry system, but this needs to be done steadily. For example, we could start with an ever increasing share of local production of the JF-17 B3 until we eventually achieve 100% local production. I'm not sure, can Pakistan produce its own landing gear for the JF-17 now?

 

[Qadeer chaudary]

First

If we look across the border, HAL and DRDO has much better technical know how and almost many fold bigger R&D budget still the date of Tejas MK II serial production is around 2029 and it can easily slip towards 2031~32. Problem is back in 2017, PAF just got awake to the reality that no country will share next gen technologies (Not talking about complete aircraft). Industrial control is the real game. India, like Pakistan, is also after that and both countries have a lot of catching up. Announcing Azm was super ambitious but if I play devil's advocate here, did PAF announced any deadline for this thing back then? I think some realization was there back then hence Aviation City @ PAC was launched. Now, it is not even single decade completed since that announcement and we want a fully completed 5 gen fighter rolling out of PAC. I think in all honesty, we are getting way too ahead of ourselves. PFX is a logical, rational and incremental step in that direction. A complete Azm like fighter is IMPOSSIBLE without going through a PFX like evolution. Now if we look at bigger picture, PAF has a lot in its plate. It has to deter a much bigger and richer AF in the East and South (thanks to IN's aircraft carrier) and at the same time, it has to come up with a working pragmatic plan to get sustained local R&D programs running. This dual challenge explain why there is J-35 acquisition and why there is PFX at the same time. Considering kartoots of our elite (PAF's top brass included) believe you me, this is like pulling off a miracle out of no where. So, we need to be little optimistic here without pausing our voice against corruption and misdeeds with in PAF.

If we look across the border, HAL and DRDO has much better technical know how and almost many fold bigger R&D budget still the date of Tejas MK II serial production is around 2029 and it can easily slip towards 2031~32. Problem is back in 2017, PAF just got awake to the reality that no country will share next gen technologies (Not talking about complete aircraft). Industrial control is the real game. India, like Pakistan, is also after that and both countries have a lot of catching up. Announcing Azm was super ambitious but if I play devil's advocate here, did PAF announced any deadline for this thing back then? I think some realization was there back then hence Aviation City @ PAC was launched. Now, it is not even single decade completed since that announcement and we want a fully completed 5 gen fighter rolling out of PAC. I think in all honesty, we are getting way too ahead of ourselves. PFX is a logical, rational and incremental step in that direction. A complete Azm like fighter is IMPOSSIBLE without going through a PFX like evolution. Now if we look at bigger picture, PAF has a lot in its plate. It has to deter a much bigger and richer AF in the East and South (thanks to IN's aircraft carrier) and at the same time, it has to come up with a working pragmatic plan to get sustained local R&D programs running. This dual challenge explain why there is J-35 acquisition and why there is PFX at the same time. Considering kartoots of our elite (PAF's top brass included) believe you me, this is like pulling off a miracle out of no where. So, we need to be little optimistic here without pausing our voice against corruption and misdeeds with in PAF.

Firstly they failed azm as a whole wasted seven years and achieved nothing. They could have alteast developed some next gen tech HMD HUD, multi function displays, GaN radar, EW, targeting pods, some research on ram, composite, DAS, EORD, EOTS, MAWS, air to air missiles
Including failed male drone program
But they wasted R&D effort money time
JF 17 was college project this was real testament to achieve something even if total fifth gen fighter program was not achieved
Coming to PFX
It will be just jf 17 block 4 maybe attempt to localize everything accept engine but who knows how much they will be successful in this but should make efforts in this regard
If they go to route of new design like speculations they will end up in same mess as DRDO and Hal with Tejas MK2.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

I think NASTP and PMSTP cause some unnecessary friction and division in our defence industry leadership and management.

The Turks set up the SSB (formerly SSM) to be the chief director and top regulatory agent of all defence industry activity in the country, be it through state-owned enterprises (SOE) or the private sector.

SSB isn't a political ministry, but the voice of the Turkish military in the defence industry scene. The key, however, is that the SSB's managed by defence industry professionals, from R&D leaders (like Dr. Ismail Demir) to business leaders to financial leaders. Basically, the military leadership in Turkey doesn't get involved in the weeds; it tells the SSB about the direction, and the SSB basically manages the rest.

Under the SSB, you get the SOEs and private sector, which then have to compete for SSB contracts in order to secure R&D funding and orders.

IMO the issue with NASTP and PMSTP is that you have parallel set ups that aren't managed by industry professionals. So, there's redundancy and a mismatch between the leadership and the work they need to be doing.

Now, to be fair, this isn't a Pakistan-only problem. Auditors are finding some insane stuff about the Pentagon and its management too. So, to expect smooth sailing in a super-large organization with lots of money and established voices is unrealistic.

Dilemma is there is not much defence industry to pick professionals from. Defence forces have managed all R&D in the country for big and complex military systems. Private sector is practically non-existing so we are stuck between the rock and a hard place.

 

[Samurai]

Its so frustrating being a Pakistani defence enthusiast and fan when most of the stuff coming from our defence sector/military industrial complex are full of ambiguity. The rest is at the mercy of defence experts and their pov. I don't understand, but is this lack of transparency on subjects intentional? because what we see from Western defence industries is that they are very much transparent and don't shy away from sharing info.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

First



Firstly they failed azm as a whole wasted seven years and achieved nothing. They could have alteast developed some next gen tech HMD HUD, multi function displays, GaN radar, EW, targeting pods, some research on ram, composite, DAS, EORD, EOTS, MAWS, air to air missiles
Including failed male drone program
But they wasted R&D effort money time
JF 17 was college project this was real testament to achieve something even if total fifth gen fighter program was not achieved
Coming to PFX
It will be just jf 17 block 4 maybe attempt to localize everything accept engine but who knows how much they will be successful in this but should make efforts in this regard
If they go to route of new design like speculations they will end up in same mess as DRDO and Hal with Tejas MK2.

This the exact problem we have. Expecting magical results while also stating that PFX will be block 4. Like I stated earlier, PFX is the outcome of a realization of lack of industrial shortcomings. The sub-systems you mentioned are not made all in one country except may be US, China or Russia. Everyone else got them from various OEMs across the world. Expecting all these things come out from single PAC is another misplaced wish. How many countries with well established industrial base are making GaN AESA, EOTS, DAS, etc?

 

[Qadeer chaudary]

This the exact problem we have. Expecting magical results while also stating that PFX will be block 4. Like I stated earlier, PFX is the outcome of a realization of lack of industrial shortcomings. The sub-systems you mentioned are not made all in one country except may be US, China or Russia. Everyone else got them from various OEMs across the world. Expecting all these things come out from single PAC is another misplaced wish. How many countries with well established industrial base are making GaN AESA, EOTS, DAS, etc?

Maybe first read clearly
UK USA France, Italy, Sweden, Russia china, and now turkey makes all these systems
I asked it was very easy to make radar, ew and targeting pods, multi function displays, hmd, HUD, A missiles look at Turkey they developed them in same timframe, instead babus chased moon to settle for nothing and didn't even materialize a single paice of equipment in Azm project
Atleast few subsystems should have been made locally
If there was any democracy in Pakistan whole Azm team should have been fired

 

[Quwa]

Hot Take (for me at least): NASTP can actually revolutionize Pakistan's aerospace sector. Even if the babus are inexperienced, they have hired so many engineers that this young and freely thinking talent will be able to eventually do a lot of things. Impressive things.

BUT there's a big caveat. Like all gov institutions, this success will be possible if NASTP gets a generation of motivated, smart, and pragmatic leadership that knows how to utilize this talent.

This is the weakest link in this whole endeavor. If, however, NASTP was run like a business with the objective to sell products and services, then it's succes will be less at the mercy of lucking into good leadership.

How about taking the opposite approach. Let NASTP be a money sink, but let it incubate Pakistani aerospace talent for more established SOE (e.g., NESCOM) and, potentially, private sector companies to adopt once said talent matures?

NESCOM seems to be expanding via bunch of companies like Stingray Technologies. There's scope there for a wellspring of programs that may not be as "scorty" prone due to the commercial nature of the NESCOM-spawn companies (which are, by design, meant to be more flexible and connectable with the industry).