JF-17 PFX program

[Cool_Soldier]

It looks like PFX would be AESA single engine with stealth features.

 

[Bilal]

I think we should look at NASTP as two.

First is the NASTP which is a PAF run R&D and product development organization. Till now our criticism and skepticism, good and bad, has been directed to this part of NASTP.

The second is NASTP as a technology cluster, which we may have wrongly concluded to be a property scheme purely to rake in money.

This second part of NASTP at the very least will bring a lot of entities (private and otherwise) in a close proximity of each other and to universities.

This (probably) in due time will spur much more than the direct PAF run portion of the NASTP by creating (hopefully) a whole ecosystem that we have dreamed of in the past.

 

[RAJPUT]

If we can build everything except the engine domesticly It would be massive.

I don’t get why the military does not pursue indigenous engines? They should start from smaller ones, sell them to local consumers, and from there they can iterate into bigger and better ones. They haven’t even tried making one yet. The experiment of the turboprop jet engine is successful thus far. I hope they try to make more types of engines be it simple in the start.

 

[Michael]

I don’t get why the military does not pursue indigenous engines? They should start from smaller ones, sell them to local consumers, and from there they can iterate into bigger and better ones. They haven’t even tried making one yet. The experiment of the turboprop jet engine is successful thus far. I hope they try to make more types of engines be it simple in the start.

The modern turbofan engine is known as the jewel in the industrial crown.
You should first carefully understand the weight of this statement and then think about your question.
If a country can build a modern turbofan engine completely independently, it qualifies for the P5 seat.

 

[Bilal]

The modern turbofan engine is known as the jewel in the industrial crown.
You should first carefully understand the weight of this statement and then think about your question.
If a country can build a modern turbofan engine completely independently, it qualifies for the P5 seat.

I think the focus is small TJ and TF for cruise missiles and drones. Less than 10Kn thrust.

 

[Oscar]

Frankly, I still don't understand the purpose and significance of "PFX program".

I analyze it from the perspective of what Chinese people do.

If it were a highly confidential program, then we would not know about the existence of "PFX Program", and even the letters “PFX” would not be known to the public. It is not until it appears on the runway that people will know of its existence.
If it is a program that can be moderately publicized, then we can at least know some basic information. But there seems to be a serious lack of such non-confidential basic information at the moment.

1. The information on the PDF is not the same. Is it “JF-17 PFX” or “PFX”? This will determine whether China participates in the program or not. ------ “JF-17” is a cooperative program jointly owned by China and Pakistan. “JF-17 PFX” means China is definitely involved; ‘PFX’ means China may not be involved. Based on the realities, it is not possible for Pakistan to complete the PFX Program on its own. Pakistan can seek cooperation with Turkey alone or with China alone. However, cooperation among the three countries “Pakistan+China+Turkey” is out of the question.

2. What are the objectives pursued by Pakistan? ------ build its own independent fighter jets? Or to design and build its own fighter aircraft independently? ------ Realistically, it seems that both goals are unlikely to be realized for current Pakistan. I have always been in favor of Pakistan establishing its own fighter industry system, but this needs to be done steadily. For example, we could start with an ever increasing share of local production of the JF-17 B3 until we eventually achieve 100% local production. I'm not sure, can Pakistan produce its own landing gear for the JF-17 now?

Have a look at the slides that show the path.

1. Larger share of Blk3 production (it’s currently sitting at some 60% local share)

2. Upgraded Blk-3(called PFX Alpha) & Local update of Block-2

3. PFX (in house Block-4 of JF-17 with modified larger airframe)

What is also not mentioned is CATIC is VERY keen and trying to add to JF-17 local production in Pakistan because it wants its own capacity to focus on next gen products for China and repurpose the facilities it currently is using for JF-17.

CATIC has hinted to PAC on a “deadline” to stop supporting JF-17 at the current level and reduce its share

 

[Michael]

I think the focus is small TJ and TF for cruise missiles and drones. Less than 10Kn thrust.

This is determined by the basic attributes of human beings. When we have easy access to something, we lose the motivation to develop/make it ourselves.

For example: motorcycle engines
It may cost us $100 to purchase a motorcycle engine. Designing and developing it ourselves would require us to invest 1 million dollars in R&D, and then we'd need to invest millions more in building a factory. However, due to the technology generation gap, the engine we build may cost $150 and may still perform worse than the engine we bought for $100. As a result, the engines we build ourselves are completely uncompetitive in the marketplace. With no market competitiveness to generate sufficient revenue, subsequent ongoing development work will be completely demotivated. In the end, the millions of dollars invested up front will be completely wasted.
Of course, if we don't have any channel to buy it, or need very high cost to get it, then its market competitiveness will be infinitely magnified ......

That's how China's industry is coming along today.
We can't buy better fighters, we have to develop them ourselves. We can't buy better engines for warships, we can only develop them ourselves ...... The United States banned Huawei from using Android, so HarmonyOS was born ......
The US has so far not banned Microsoft from banning Windows from China, so Windows is still widely used by the Chinese today. there are many Chinese companies trying to develop their own PC operating system, but no one has succeeded (with the exception of the military).
I think only when the Americans ban the use of Windows in China that day, the Chinese own PC operating system will really appear.

That's a basic human attribute. These situations are placed on any country, any ethnic group, and the results are exactly the same.

 

[RAJPUT]

The modern turbofan engine is known as the jewel in the industrial crown.
You should first carefully understand the weight of this statement and then think about your question.
If a country can build a modern turbofan engine completely independently, it qualifies for the P5 seat.

Sorry, my bad. I meant to say the microturbine engine that is being used in the missiles.

 

[Michael]

Have a look at the slides that show the path.

1. Larger share of Blk3 production (it’s currently sitting at some 60% local share)

2. Upgraded Blk-3(called PFX Alpha) & Local update of Block-2

3. PFX (in house Block-4 of JF-17 with modified larger airframe)

What is also not mentioned is CATIC is VERY keen and trying to add to JF-17 local production in Pakistan because it wants its own capacity to focus on next gen products for China and repurpose the facilities it currently is using for JF-17.

CATIC has hinted to PAC on a “deadline” to stop supporting JF-17 at the current level and reduce its share

I have always been of this opinion.CAC wants to hand over everything related to JF-17 to Pakistan. There is nothing that needs to be kept secret for China and Pakistan.CAC's focus is still on the design of the next generation fighter and the production of the J-20.

The question centers on how much Pakistan can receive with its current industrial base?
Local share ratio is meaningless. That's just some claimed terminology.
We should use a more direct formulation. For example, what specific components can be produced entirely in Pakistan?

 

[TAC]

Frankly, I still don't understand the purpose and significance of "PFX program".

I analyze it from the perspective of what Chinese people do.

If it were a highly confidential program, then we would not know about the existence of "PFX Program", and even the letters “PFX” would not be known to the public. It is not until it appears on the runway that people will know of its existence.
If it is a program that can be moderately publicized, then we can at least know some basic information. But there seems to be a serious lack of such non-confidential basic information at the moment.

1. The information on the PDF is not the same. Is it “JF-17 PFX” or “PFX”? This will determine whether China participates in the program or not. ------ “JF-17” is a cooperative program jointly owned by China and Pakistan. “JF-17 PFX” means China is definitely involved; ‘PFX’ means China may not be involved. Based on the realities, it is not possible for Pakistan to complete the PFX Program on its own. Pakistan can seek cooperation with Turkey alone or with China alone. However, cooperation among the three countries “Pakistan+China+Turkey” is out of the question.

2. What are the objectives pursued by Pakistan? ------ build its own independent fighter jets? Or to design and build its own fighter aircraft independently? ------ Realistically, it seems that both goals are unlikely to be realized for current Pakistan. I have always been in favor of Pakistan establishing its own fighter industry system, but this needs to be done steadily. For example, we could start with an ever increasing share of local production of the JF-17 B3 until we eventually achieve 100% local production. I'm not sure, can Pakistan produce its own landing gear for the JF-17 now?

You only need to glance around the IDEAS exhibition and see the literally dozens of products labelled as ’indigenous’ when they are clearly licence produced Chinese products or at least have huge Chinese heritage. No doubt at all that Pakistan is trying to absorb latest technology as quickly as its abilities and finances allow, but I have no doubt that whether they call it the JF-17 PFX or just the PFX there will be substantial Chinese involvement in the project. Perhaps Turkish assistance too, but to lesser extent. Just my view, I’m sure others may disagree.

 

[Michael]

You only need to glance around the IDEAS exhibition and see the literally dozens of products labelled as ’indigenous’ when they are clearly licence produced Chinese products or at least have huge Chinese heritage. No doubt at all that Pakistan is trying to absorb latest technology as quickly as its abilities and finances allow, but I have no doubt that whether they call it the JF-17 PFX or just the PFX there will be substantial Chinese involvement in the project. Perhaps Turkish assistance too, but to lesser extent. Just my view, I’m sure others may disagree.

In fact, I have been following the news about it. However, I have been following it in a different direction. I am more concerned about Pakistan's real investment in building some basic science.

For example:
In February 2012, NESCOM visited Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics (NUAA). The two sides agreed on “NUAA's project to design and build a low-speed wind tunnel for Pakistan”. I don't know the follow-up of this project.
If the project is already operational in Pakistan, it will be very beneficial for Pakistan's development in the field of aerodynamics. When conditions are ripe, Pakistan can continue to seek their help in building higher speed wind tunnels.
With these foundations in place, Pakistan's final products in the relevant fields could be truly autonomous.

There are many more relevant examples, so I will not cite them all.
Again, we can judge the truth of a country's news by their infrastructure. For example, the so-called hypersonic missiles of certain countries ......

 

[TAC]

Have a look at the slides that show the path.

1. Larger share of Blk3 production (it’s currently sitting at some 60% local share)

2. Upgraded Blk-3(called PFX Alpha) & Local update of Block-2

3. PFX (in house Block-4 of JF-17 with modified larger airframe)

What is also not mentioned is CATIC is VERY keen and trying to add to JF-17 local production in Pakistan because it wants its own capacity to focus on next gen products for China and repurpose the facilities it currently is using for JF-17.

CATIC has hinted to PAC on a “deadline” to stop supporting JF-17 at the current level and reduce its share

Thanks for clarifying the detail, much appreciated. If China is pushing for Pakistan to absorb the Jf-17 related tech & Pakistan is hopefully equally keen on absorbing it, can only be very positive for indigenisation efforts and future developments.

 

[Bilal]

In fact, I have been following the news about it. However, I have been following it in a different direction. I am more concerned about Pakistan's real investment in building some basic science.

For example:
In February 2012, NESCOM visited Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics (NUAA). The two sides agreed on “NUAA's project to design and build a low-speed wind tunnel for Pakistan”. I don't know the follow-up of this project.
If the project is already operational in Pakistan, it will be very beneficial for Pakistan's development in the field of aerodynamics. When conditions are ripe, Pakistan can continue to seek their help in building higher speed wind tunnels.
With these foundations in place, Pakistan's final products in the relevant fields could be truly autonomous.

There are many more relevant examples, so I will not cite them all.
Again, we can judge the truth of a country's news by their infrastructure. For example, the so-called hypersonic missiles of certain countries ......

They have built both low speed and high speed wind tunnels up to Mach 3.75.

Post in thread 'IDEAS 2024'
https://defencepk.com/forums/threads/ideas-2024.6397/post-436223

 

[RAJPUT]

In fact, I have been following the news about it. However, I have been following it in a different direction. I am more concerned about Pakistan's real investment in building some basic science.

For example:
In February 2012, NESCOM visited Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics (NUAA). The two sides agreed on “NUAA's project to design and build a low-speed wind tunnel for Pakistan”. I don't know the follow-up of this project.
If the project is already operational in Pakistan, it will be very beneficial for Pakistan's development in the field of aerodynamics. When conditions are ripe, Pakistan can continue to seek their help in building higher speed wind tunnels.
With these foundations in place, Pakistan's final products in the relevant fields could be truly autonomous.

There are many more relevant examples, so I will not cite them all.
Again, we can judge the truth of a country's news by their infrastructure. For example, the so-called hypersonic missiles of certain countries ......

Someone shared 2 wind tunnels already operating in Pakistan. Their utilisation although remains to be confidential. One was larger and supersonic and the other was smaller and subsonic.

 

[Michael]

They have built both low speed and high speed wind tunnels up to Mach 3.75.

Post in thread 'IDEAS 2024'
https://defencepk.com/forums/threads/ideas-2024.6397/post-436223

Someone shared 2 wind tunnels already operating in Pakistan. Their utilisation although remains to be confidential. One was larger and supersonic and the other was smaller and subsonic.

Thank you very much. ------ Due to GFW, I can't access many English websites directly, which leads to a lack of access to certain information.

The upper limit of the wind tunnel is the upper limit of the speed study of the vehicle. Although most research problems can now be solved by computer simulation, traditional wind tunnel research is more conducive to reducing research risk. Having these wind tunnels will be more beneficial for Pakistan's research work in this area.