HAL LCA Tejas: Updates, News & Discussions

[kmc_chacko]

- Possible local production of Embraer C-390 Millenium in India
- Possible Govt to Govt contract for Tejas (Mk1A or Mk2 or even LCA Navy)

1). C-390 was one of the plane which India should have gone with long back instead of C-130s

2) GoI should give importance to inducting Tejas in large numbers into IAF rather than trying exporting it.

 

[MirageBlue]

1). C-390 was one of the plane which India should have gone with long back instead of C-130s

2) GoI should give importance to inducting Tejas in large numbers into IAF rather than trying exporting it.

When long back? The C-130J was in service before the C-390 even flew.

Exports are good in every way. Can't believe anyone has to argue that exports shouldn't be done but rather focus on internal deliveries. Let both happen. One won't necessarily hamper the other.

 

[GatlingGun]

Infodefensa is reporting that an Indian delegation is about to visit Brazil to further discussions on a host of defence programs including:

- Possible local production of Embraer C-390 Millenium in India
- Possible Govt to Govt contract for Tejas (Mk1A or Mk2 or even LCA Navy)
- Joint maintenance of Scorpene submarines
- Possible sale of Akash SAM systems to Brazil
- Drones, RPA
- Guided munitions
- EW/Cyber systems

Una delegación india viajará a Brasil en diciembre por posibles acuerdos sobre cazas y aviones de transporte

Las negociaciones entre Brasil e India tendrán lugar durante el Diálogo Brasil-India de la Industria de Defensa, los días 8 y 9 de diciembre en São José dos Campos (SP). ...

www.infodefensa.com

They've already made long stride for Italian twin engine trainers. It seems to fits their cheap and not sophisticated bill perfectly. So most probably it's one sided deal for C390 assembly. Other weapons you mentioned can be into the deal.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

Brazil plans to increase its buy of Jas 30 Gripen fighters by 25 percent. Brazil currently has 36 Gripens on order, so a 25 percent increase would mean nine additional fighters. Embraer and Saab have a joint production agreement, with Gripens being produced in-country in Brazil as part of the 2014 decision to purchase the jets.

Why would they go for Tejas when they already have in-country production of Gripen. What gap they have with Gripen which Tejas can fill in terms of requirement? Knowledgeable members please inform.

Sweden selects Embraer C-390 transport aircraft, as Brazil eyes more Gripens - Breaking Defense

“Aerospace cooperation is important to both Sweden and Brazil. The new letter of intent provides a basis for us to further deepen this cooperation,” Swedish Minister for Defence Pål Jonson said in a statement.

breakingdefense.com

 

[MirageBlue]

They've already made long stride for Italian twin engine trainers. It seems to fits their cheap and not sophisticated bill perfectly. So most probably it's one sided deal for C390 assembly. Other weapons you mentioned can be into the deal.

If the Indian govt plays its cards right, they should tie the local assembly of C-390 as MTA with a corresponding sale of Tejas fighters (Mk1A or Mk2) to Brazil.

India shouldn't proceed without that. Embraer will not get a bigger deal than the IAF's MTA requirement for nearly 60-80 transports. They know it well. And they have a requirement for at least 2 fighter types and at most 3 fighter types as per the rules of the Brazilian Air Force. Gripen E will be the only fighter type after the F-5 retires since the AMX is already gone. So that still leaves 1 to 2 fighter types that can be acquired.

LCA Navy is a long shot. Their A-4 Skyhawk (AF-1M as per their nomenclature) naval fighters are to remain in service till 2030 or thereabouts. If they want to retain a naval fighter capability there are very few options that are available, including F-35B and Rafale M. TEDBF would be a very long shot.

 

[MirageBlue]

Brazil plans to increase its buy of Jas 30 Gripen fighters by 25 percent. Brazil currently has 36 Gripens on order, so a 25 percent increase would mean nine additional fighters. Embraer and Saab have a joint production agreement, with Gripens being produced in-country in Brazil as part of the 2014 decision to purchase the jets.

Why would they go for Tejas when they already have in-country production of Gripen. What gap they have with Gripen which Tejas can fill in terms of requirement? Knowledgeable members please inform.

Sweden selects Embraer C-390 transport aircraft, as Brazil eyes more Gripens - Breaking Defense

“Aerospace cooperation is important to both Sweden and Brazil. The new letter of intent provides a basis for us to further deepen this cooperation,” Swedish Minister for Defence Pål Jonson said in a statement.

breakingdefense.com

You're not aware of a rule that exists in Brazil that the Brazilian Air Force must have at least 2 fighter types with a max of 3 fighter types.

With AMX retired, the Brazilian Air Force currently has 2 fighter types, with the Gripen E/F and F-5EM/FMs. But those F-5EM/FMs are due to be retired in a few years (by 2030) leaving them with only the Gripen E. As per their own rules, that is not permissible.

That makes sense when one considers the possibility of embargoes or sanctions crippling the Air Force if they depend on only 1 fighter type.

If they choose to go with the Tejas Mk2, they'll have commonality of engines which is a big deal when it comes to maintaining them with a common set of spares and training technicians to do the MRO work.

 

[Deino]

Brazil plans to increase its buy of Jas 30 Gripen fighters by 25 percent. Brazil currently has 36 Gripens on order, so a 25 percent increase would mean nine additional fighters. Embraer and Saab have a joint production agreement, with Gripens being produced in-country in Brazil as part of the 2014 decision to purchase the jets.

Why would they go for Tejas when they already have in-country production of Gripen. What gap they have with Gripen which Tejas can fill in terms of requirement? Knowledgeable members please inform.

Sweden selects Embraer C-390 transport aircraft, as Brazil eyes more Gripens - Breaking Defense

“Aerospace cooperation is important to both Sweden and Brazil. The new letter of intent provides a basis for us to further deepen this cooperation,” Swedish Minister for Defence Pål Jonson said in a statement.

breakingdefense.com

There is NO chance for the Tejas and to even think Brazil would go for a fighter, that is not yet flown, not even in service within the IAF and add another fighter some day in the early 2030s when it can have the "original" aka a Gripen NOW, is just ridiculous.

 

[Yasser76]

There is NO chance for the Tejas and to even think Brazil would go for a fighter, that is not yet flown, not even in service within the IAF and add another fighter some day in the early 2030s when it can have the "original" aka a Gripen NOW, is just ridiculous.

Yup, this thread has really gone into a wet dream rabbit hole now. Argentina, Nigeria and Malaysia were all supposed to have ordered the Tejas by now.

Brazil who are flying Grien E/Fs ( a much better plane then the MK1A) and churning them out themselves at a rate HAL can only dream about.

A more realistic scenario would actually be Brazil offering both it's C-390 to India and helping Sweden out with manufactruing Gripens on both lines to help make up the Indian fighter shortage very quickly, but reality never really comes to this thread much anymore.....

 

[MirageBlue]

There is NO chance for the Tejas and to even think Brazil would go for a fighter, that is not yet flown, not even in service within the IAF and add another fighter some day in the early 2030s when it can have the "original" aka a Gripen NOW, is just ridiculous.

Your usual rants aside, the Brazilians committed to Gripen E when there was no Gripen E flying. They had evaluated the Gripen C and chosen the Gripen E based on the specifications promised to them.

There is no clarity yet on what is on offer to the Brazilians or what they are interested in- Tejas Mk1A or Mk2.

You haven't bothered to read up- the Brazilian Air Force has a rule that states that they cannot have just 1 fighter type in their inventory. It has to be a minimum of 2 or a maximum of 3 fighter types.

You're ignorant about their rules and keep foaming at the mouth each time Indian or Brazilian outlets bring up the matter of discussions. Your biases don't affect them you see?

Multiple Brazilian defense outlets are themselves stating that the Brazilians are considering this and you're out here with your usual anti-Indian rants. I'm sometimes genuinely surprised that someone as biased as you are is a moderator.

 

[Deino]

Your usual rants aside, the Brazilians committed to Gripen E when there was no Gripen E flying. They had evaluated the Gripen C and chosen the Gripen E based on the specifications promised to them.

There is no clarity yet on what is on offer to the Brazilians or what they are interested in- Tejas Mk1A or Mk2.

You haven't bothered to read up- the Brazilian Air Force has a rule that states that they cannot have just 1 fighter type in their inventory. It has to be a minimum of 2 or a maximum of 3 fighter types.

You're ignorant about their rules and keep foaming at the mouth each time Indian or Brazilian outlets bring up the matter of discussions. Your biases don't affect them you see?

Multiple Brazilian defense outlets are themselves stating that the Brazilians are considering this and you're out here with your usual anti-Indian rants. I'm sometimes genuinely surprised that someone as biased as you are is a moderator.

You might rate it a normal rant, but in fact it is common sense against again some funny wet-dreams! The fact that Brazil chose the Gripen-E, when none was fliyng might be correct, but the regular Gripens were flying mature in service within several Air Forces unlike the Tejas (in fact of any version) besides the most simple regular Mk. 1 variant.

As such, your comparison is off by the fact, the Saab had already proven it can deliver whereas HAL so far has only proven it cannot.

And yes, I am biased I am biased against - similar to certain Pakistani members who surely hate me similar like you do - since I hate bragging, boasting, selling fiction as fact and drawing inappropriate comparisons.HAL and its fan-crowd like you is boasting since years what will, what can, what is ... and in fact measured on what actually is, it is almost NOTHING!

So just like these Pakistani homies, keep it realistic, stick to the facts and then there's no need to complain others "would be biased"!

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

You're not aware of a rule that exists in Brazil that the Brazilian Air Force must have at least 2 fighter types with a max of 3 fighter types.

With AMX retired, the Brazilian Air Force currently has 2 fighter types, with the Gripen E/F and F-5EM/FMs. But those F-5EM/FMs are due to be retired in a few years (by 2030) leaving them with only the Gripen E. As per their own rules, that is not permissible.

That makes sense when one considers the possibility of embargoes or sanctions crippling the Air Force if they depend on only 1 fighter type.

If they choose to go with the Tejas Mk2, they'll have commonality of engines which is a big deal when it comes to maintaining them with a common set of spares and training technicians to do the MRO work.

Just because Brazil have a rule that the Brazilian Air Force must have at least 2 fighter types, Why do you think that the other fighter will be the Tejas and not some other aircraft? Back to my original query, what capability will the Tejas add that they don’t have with the Gripen? Because if it’s not adding something significant, common logic says they will look for a jet that will add some capability to their current status. In 2019, the US designated Brazil as a Major Non-NATO Ally. They have good relations with Europe, Russia, and China and theoretically won’t have any significant issue in getting any jet. So the question is again, what capability will the Tejas add that they don’t have with the Gripen? And why would they choose the Tejas when they have virtually all options on the table?

 

[kmc_chacko]

When long back? The C-130J was in service before the C-390 even flew.

Exports are good in every way. Can't believe anyone has to argue that exports shouldn't be done but rather focus on internal deliveries. Let both happen. One won't necessarily hamper the other.

C-390 fits for IAFs MTA project, a localized production with ToT of C-390 will give many customization options/opportunity to MoD/MoA.

Regarding Export of Tejas, present situation of non induction of Tejas is arise due to non availability of engines i.e., breach of contract by GE and what is the guarantee for delivery of engines without any hiccups ? my suggestion is first localize production of GE engines and make sure we will have sufficient stock of engines then think about export, otherwise it will be a 'मुंगेरीलाल के हसीन सपने'.

Finally, I am still of opinion that MoD should address shortfall of squadrons first rather than exploring opportunity for exporting.

 

[MirageBlue]

You might rate it a normal rant, but in fact it is common sense against again some funny wet-dreams! The fact that Brazil chose the Gripen-E, when none was fliyng might be correct, but the regular Gripens were flying mature in service within several Air Forces unlike the Tejas (in fact of any version) besides the most simple regular Mk. 1 variant.

As such, your comparison is off by the fact, the Saab had already proven it can deliver whereas HAL so far has only proven it cannot.

And yes, I am biased I am biased against - similar to certain Pakistani members who surely hate me similar like you do - since I hate bragging, boasting, selling fiction as fact and drawing inappropriate comparisons.HAL and its fan-crowd like you is boasting since years what will, what can, what is ... and in fact measured on what actually is, it is almost NOTHING!

So just like these Pakistani homies, keep it realistic, stick to the facts and then there's no need to complain others "would be biased"!

I really think you aren't half as smart as you think you are.

Saab has already proven it can deliver is it? Because they're European and their PR is strong?

Fact - the first Gripen E entered Brazilian service in 2022, a full 8 years after the deal was signed for 36 Gripen E/Fs in October 2014. The first F-39E was delivered to the Brazilians in December 2021, a full 7 years after the deal was signed.

So apparently Saab can "deliver" despite the fact that the first Gripen E first flew in FAB colors literally 5 years after contract signature?? Despite the fact that now, not even a single Gripen F will be assembled in Brazil but instead they've amended the contract so that all Gripen F's will be assembled at Linkoping?

The Saab Gripen E contract was signed by Brazil in 2014 and then a full 5 years later they had first flight. And now, even 10 years later it has not fully reached FOC. In fact it had it's first international exercise in 2024.

And to date, only 9 Gripen Es have been delivered, a full 10 years after the contract was signed! 27 more need to be delivered, all behind schedule.

Brazil's Gripen assembly line can apparently produce a total of 8 Gripen E/Fs per year. But of course, there hasn't yet been a single Gripen E rolled out of that assembly line.

HAL managed to fly the first Tejas Mk1A 38 months after contract signature instead of 36 months as per the contract they signed. A delay of 2 months. The issues with the GE F-404 engine are not HAL's fault, but entirely GE and it's supply chain related. Even as we speak, HAL is continuing to manufacture and assemble Tejas Mk1As, but they can't be delivered pending the F-404 engines from GE's side.

But then when is as anti Indian as you are, facts don't matter, simply rehashing and remixing your biases is all you do.

Fact is this- the Brazilians and Indians are discussing. YOU don't need to like it, it doesn't need to make any sense to YOU. Because you aren't someone who is any way involved with this discussion/negotiation between the Brazilians and Indians.

If the Brazilians find it doesn't suit their interests, they'll not go ahead with a deal. That is their prerogative. Why're you acting like this is some personal insult to you that they're in discussions?

No one is making up these articles on talks/discussions between the parties. It's happening, whether you like it or not.

 

[MirageBlue]

Just because Brazil have a rule that the Brazilian Air Force must have at least 2 fighter types, Why do you think that the other fighter will be the Tejas and not some other aircraft? Back to my original query, what capability will the Tejas add that they don’t have with the Gripen? Because if it’s not adding something significant, common logic says they will look for a jet that will add some capability to their current status. In 2019, the US designated Brazil as a Major Non-NATO Ally. They have good relations with Europe, Russia, and China and theoretically won’t have any significant issue in getting any jet. So the question is again, what capability will the Tejas add that they don’t have with the Gripen? And why would they choose the Tejas when they have virtually all options on the table?

Because the Brazilians have themselves stated that they're evaluating the Tejas. Lol. They're free to evaluate and negotiate with whosoever they wish to. It could be Lockheed for the F-16V, Dassault for the Rafale or even the Chinese for the J-10. That is their prerogative, as is their budget for the purchase.

One simple logic for having at least 2 different fighter types in service is to de risk one's fighter fleet. In the event that you have just 1 type in service and the country selling it to you decides to sanction you for whatever reason, you'll find you have no fighters left to fly.

You guys are acting as if someone on this forum is making up these articles. Even earlier, when the Brazilian Air Force chief himself stated that they were looking at the Tejas Mk1A, people on this forum were going nuts stating why would the Brazilians do that and mocking the Tejas. Despite the claim being made by the Brazilian Air Force chief himself!

Fact is that the Tejas is the closest modern 4th gen fighter in the F-5 class, apart from the JF-17. All other light fighters are essentially trainers modified to become fighters.

Tejas Mk1 is in service, and there's a contract for 83 in hand and another for 97 to come soon. That's 180 Tejas Mk1As on contract for HAL to deliver. So it's obvious that this is a type that will be in production for quite some time and will be supported for many years to come.

But the Tejas Mk1A is more modern and flies with an American engine that to an Air Force that has only flown Western fighters, is definitely more desirable than flying with a Russian RD-93 engine or a Chinese engine that is still in it's early years.

And it's also a fact that the Tejas Mk2 is now on course for prototype production and is almost guaranteed to enter IAF service. So it is for the Brazilians to take a call as to whether the Tejas Mk1A or Tejas Mk2 meet their needs and their timelines as well as their budget.

 

[MirageBlue]

C-390 fits for IAFs MTA project, a localized production with ToT of C-390 will give many customization options/opportunity to MoD/MoA.

Regarding Export of Tejas, present situation of non induction of Tejas is arise due to non availability of engines i.e., breach of contract by GE and what is the guarantee for delivery of engines without any hiccups ? my suggestion is first localize production of GE engines and make sure we will have sufficient stock of engines then think about export, otherwise it will be a 'मुंगेरीलाल के हसीन सपने'.

Finally, I am still of opinion that MoD should address shortfall of squadrons first rather than exploring opportunity for exporting.

Tejas Mk2 engines are to be produced in India itself.

As for Tejas Mk1A, GE will begin deliveries of the F-404 whenever their supply chain bottleneck is addressed.

That is for the negotiators to discuss and for HAL/IAF/MoD people to convince the Brazilians that if a deal is done, they'll be able to begin deliveries within the timeframe that will be put in the contract.

As of now it is not even clear as to which variant the Brazilians may want- Tejas Mk1A or Tejas Mk2, which should be in production in the early 2030s, fitting in with their F-5EM retirement timeline.