JF-17 PFX program

[FuturePAF]

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Some do not connect the latest One of the points that no one noticed is Pakistan's negotiations with the Russians on engines and engine manufacturing This news

The Russians also have an interest in marketing their engines
The Russians announced at the Chinese Air Show that they are developing the RD-33 engine to reach a capacity of 12 tons to be used in developing the MIG-29M and also
View attachment 84527
The Russians are targeting the Pakistani market for a new version of the Chinese engine, especially since India has turned to American engines

The seller does not analyze any of the matters well China's presence in the state arms market and technology transfer and all the appearance of the Turks led to radical changes taking place in bankrupt Europe now that restricts technology transfer begging customers so Pakistan can get AESA radars from the Turks or the Koreans or the Italians whether technology or complete radars because the technology has already been deployed and Pakistan has fighters with AESA radars, that is, Pakistan will simply get the technology at a lower cost than some imagine
So the main point for Pakistan is to develop a modern advanced structure for the new version manufactured with the best available technology because it is the basis and also with a good life of 8000-12000 flight hours
View attachment 84529
Many do not imagine that the United States needs a generation fighter The fourth 4++ is believed to be under design for very simple reasons. There is a shortage of fighters and the effectiveness of the F-35 fighters is questionable. The exit of large numbers of F-16/18/15 fighters in quantity without a real alternative represents a disaster for them. The matter is not as some imagine that the unmanned aircraft will replace the fighters in a short time. On the contrary, there has appeared a need for fighters and aircraft that are not of high performance but at a lower cost to clear the airspace from the unmanned aircraft that are currently spreading intensively.


The most important point is that those who say that Pakistan needs high costs and long years are missing important points. Pakistan is true, it produces 58% of the components of the JF-17. Therefore, the speed of developing avionics derived from it and integrating it into the new fighter, and even with components that go into developing the F-16, will reduce costs to a large extent. No one paid attention to explanatory points, for example, Germany developed the AIM-9 missile and produced the IRIS-T missile development program from it, then developed a complete family and a series of air defense missiles later. No one wants to see Pakistan developed in the aviation industry, whether the Chinese, the Turks, the Europeans, the Russians or the Americans. This is a natural thing because you are competing in the monopoly fighter market, but now the market has been entered by competitors such as the South Koreans, the Turks and even the Swedes, who are getting new contracts in Latin America. That is, you are heading to the position you want and no one will help you. We do not find a policy of belittling and that the project is huge and needs large funding that is not within Pakistan's capacity. All of these matters only target the Pakistani will and make the matter appear It is complicated and no one can, and countries like China steal banned European and American technologies and develop technologies, and the same thing, the Turks also bought technologies from the Israelis, Koreans and Chinese and developed their own technologies based on them, so these opinions should not be paid attention to, as Pakistan was able to develop nuclear weapons despite the ban, and the manufacture of fighters will not be an obstacle as long as there is a will for that, and Pakistan was able to obtain contracts that become small and successive that can help in developing a new version because every fighter that is sold is sold with maintenance and development services, ammunition and spare parts, so the efficiency of the project simply goes back to the good design of the aircraft and the modernity will have an excellent return

So is there a chance Pakistan can do licensed production of these next generation medium thrust Russian Engines in Pakistan?

What was the max performance of these engines again? 12 tons; 26,455 lb or 119 kn?

If so, Definitely a project to consider.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

So is there a chance Pakistan can do licensed production of these next generation medium thrust Russian Engines in Pakistan?

What was the max performance of these engines again? 12 tons; 26,455 lb or 119 kn?

If so, Definitely a project to consider.

The PAF may also consider TEI's 35k lb engine being developed for KAAN. It gives an edge having enough power with the GE-class R&D and manufacturing genre coupled with super-cruising and super-cooling features that come with an FGF. Not to mention all the PAF's leading jets have engines from China and Russia. They may want to diversify....

 

[FuturePAF]

The PAF may also consider TEI's 35k lb engine being developed for KAAN. It gives an edge having enough power with the GE-class R&D and manufacturing genre coupled with super-cruising and super-cooling features that come with an FGF. Not to mention all the PAF's leading jets have engines from China and Russia. They may want to diversify....

Any information on the dimensions of this engine; approx. Length and Diameter? The PAF does need an engine that is powerful enough to give the design adequate TWR.

A 35K engine would be approx. 101.5 kn dry (~22,500 lb) and 157 kn wet.

Would TEI allow the PAC to license manufacture in Pakistan?

 

[Quwa]

@JamD @arslank01

Hear me out...

I think (just my opinion) the PFX will eventually be rolled into an enlarged variant of the TAI Hürjet.

The most recent scaled mock-ups of Turkiye's aircraft carrier do NOT show the KAAN, but rather, a mix of Bayraktar Kızılelma UCAV as well as TB3 and the TAI Hürjet.

However, I don't think the Hürjet in its current design and configuration will be the final template for the Turkish Navy's crewed carrier fighter. Like HAL, TAI will find that the carrier-specific requirements will not translate well in the current design. IMO, TAI will likely need to enlarge it and use a higher output engine to produce a more optimal carrierborne design (ala Tejas Mk2 or Gripen E/M).

If this becomes a thing, then I can see the PAF hopping onto some TAI Hürjet-based fighter. Perhaps, and a big if, but a second-go-around with TAI and PAF (via NASTP) could yield better results, and that too on simpler development work (vs KAAN).

 

[Deino]

@JamD @arslank01

Hear me out...

I think (just my opinion) the PFX will eventually be rolled into an enlarged variant of the TAI Hürjet.

The most recent scaled mock-ups of Turkiye's aircraft carrier do NOT show the KAAN, but rather, a mix of Bayraktar Kızılelma UCAV as well as TB3 and the TAI Hürjet.

However, I don't think the Hürjet in its current design and configuration will be the final template for the Turkish Navy's crewed carrier fighter. Like HAL, TAI will find that the carrier-specific requirements will not translate well in the current design. IMO, TAI will likely need to enlarge it and use a higher output engine to produce a more optimal carrierborne design (ala Tejas Mk2 or Gripen E/M).

If this becomes a thing, then I can see the PAF hopping onto some TAI Hürjet-based fighter. Perhaps, and a big if, but a second-go-around with TAI and PAF (via NASTP) could yield better results, and that too on simpler development work (vs KAAN).

Good point, but if Pakistan is not happy with the current Chinese dependence - as @arslank01 already mentioned several times - is it then wise to exchange one dependency for another? Even more so this "merges" PFX/Hürjet-PLUS would come even later?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Any information on the dimensions of this engine; approx. Length and Diameter? The PAF does need an engine that is powerful enough to give the design adequate TWR.

A 35K engine would be approx. 101.5 kn dry (~22,500 lb) and 157 kn wet.

Would TEI allow the PAC to license manufacture in Pakistan?

KAAN's fuselage is being modified to house it. According to the TEI CEO, the current 10K lb engine with an afterburner needs to have a longer diameter to go for 35k lb thrust....

 

[Quwa]

Good point, but if Pakistan is not happy with the current Chinese dependence - as @arslank01 already mentioned several times - is it then wise to exchange one dependency for another? Even more so this "merges" PFX/Hürjet-PLUS would come even later?

Well, the harsh truth here is that because Pakistan isn't an industrialized state, it'll need to depend on someone for industrial support. That started out with the UK, then went to the US, now sits with China, and could move on to Turkiye.

However, the interesting thing with Turkiye is that collaborating with them necessitates consortiums. Turkiye can't scale every single thing alone, it'll need partners, which its leaders have called for many times, including in Pakistan since at least 2016.

So, if Pakistan executes well, it can get meaningful work-share deals with the Turks. If a Hurjet fighter materializes, the Turks would need it for their own needs and, as such, will buy back from Pakistani producers. This is a sharp contrast to China, which didn't need the JF-17 and so, the potential work for PAC (outside of PAF orders) never involved much.

The Turks are also positive to collaborating with Pakistan in principle, but Pakistan's execution is flawlessly bad. Pakistan can be so incompetent at times that you'd call it intentional malice, but then that would be giving a lot of undeserved credit. From the lack of engagement on the KAAN to the delays in the Turkish Super Mushshak program, PAC won't execute well.

However, we're seeing some really positive signs from the SPD orgs (e.g., NESCOM), which have been engaging in promising munitions and, to an extent, drone work. So, perhaps, a collaboration could be doable and very productive, but with a different Pakistani partner (e.g., a NESCOM-run org rather than PAC and PAF leadership).

 

[vayu]

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Some do not connect the latest One of the points that no one noticed is Pakistan's negotiations with the Russians on engines and engine manufacturing This news

The Russians also have an interest in marketing their engines
The Russians announced at the Chinese Air Show that they are developing the RD-33 engine to reach a capacity of 12 tons to be used in developing the MIG-29M and also
View attachment 84527
The Russians are targeting the Pakistani market for a new version of the Chinese engine, especially since India has turned to American engines

The seller does not analyze any of the matters well China's presence in the state arms market and technology transfer and all the appearance of the Turks led to radical changes taking place in bankrupt Europe now that restricts technology transfer begging customers so Pakistan can get AESA radars from the Turks or the Koreans or the Italians whether technology or complete radars because the technology has already been deployed and Pakistan has fighters with AESA radars, that is, Pakistan will simply get the technology at a lower cost than some imagine
So the main point for Pakistan is to develop a modern advanced structure for the new version manufactured with the best available technology because it is the basis and also with a good life of 8000-12000 flight hours
View attachment 84529
Many do not imagine that the United States needs a generation fighter The fourth 4++ is believed to be under design for very simple reasons. There is a shortage of fighters and the effectiveness of the F-35 fighters is questionable. The exit of large numbers of F-16/18/15 fighters in quantity without a real alternative represents a disaster for them. The matter is not as some imagine that the unmanned aircraft will replace the fighters in a short time. On the contrary, there has appeared a need for fighters and aircraft that are not of high performance but at a lower cost to clear the airspace from the unmanned aircraft that are currently spreading intensively.


The most important point is that those who say that Pakistan needs high costs and long years are missing important points. Pakistan is true, it produces 58% of the components of the JF-17. Therefore, the speed of developing avionics derived from it and integrating it into the new fighter, and even with components that go into developing the F-16, will reduce costs to a large extent. No one paid attention to explanatory points, for example, Germany developed the AIM-9 missile and produced the IRIS-T missile development program from it, then developed a complete family and a series of air defense missiles later. No one wants to see Pakistan developed in the aviation industry, whether the Chinese, the Turks, the Europeans, the Russians or the Americans. This is a natural thing because you are competing in the monopoly fighter market, but now the market has been entered by competitors such as the South Koreans, the Turks and even the Swedes, who are getting new contracts in Latin America. That is, you are heading to the position you want and no one will help you. We do not find a policy of belittling and that the project is huge and needs large funding that is not within Pakistan's capacity. All of these matters only target the Pakistani will and make the matter appear It is complicated and no one can, and countries like China steal banned European and American technologies and develop technologies, and the same thing, the Turks also bought technologies from the Israelis, Koreans and Chinese and developed their own technologies based on them, so these opinions should not be paid attention to, as Pakistan was able to develop nuclear weapons despite the ban, and the manufacture of fighters will not be an obstacle as long as there is a will for that, and Pakistan was able to obtain contracts that become small and successive that can help in developing a new version because every fighter that is sold is sold with maintenance and development services, ammunition and spare parts, so the efficiency of the project simply goes back to the good design of the aircraft and the modernity will have an excellent return

I really dont understand how russia is going to benifit by transfering engine technology to Pakistan, at time when they are planning to induct most of the chiness fighters, it make sense in china doing some transfer for technology to checkmate indians.

 

[mythbuster]

@JamD @arslank01

Hear me out...

I think (just my opinion) the PFX will eventually be rolled into an enlarged variant of the TAI Hürjet.

The most recent scaled mock-ups of Turkiye's aircraft carrier do NOT show the KAAN, but rather, a mix of Bayraktar Kızılelma UCAV as well as TB3 and the TAI Hürjet.

However, I don't think the Hürjet in its current design and configuration will be the final template for the Turkish Navy's crewed carrier fighter. Like HAL, TAI will find that the carrier-specific requirements will not translate well in the current design. IMO, TAI will likely need to enlarge it and use a higher output engine to produce a more optimal carrierborne design (ala Tejas Mk2 or Gripen E/M).

If this becomes a thing, then I can see the PAF hopping onto some TAI Hürjet-based fighter. Perhaps, and a big if, but a second-go-around with TAI and PAF (via NASTP) could yield better results, and that too on simpler development work (vs KAAN).

That's an interesting take , do you think hurjet based fighter will meet the capabilities required by PAF ? If yes then to what extent ?

 

[Quwa]

That's an interesting take , do you think hurjet based fighter will meet the capabilities required by PAF ? If yes then to what extent ?

The PAF hasn't said much about the PFX's requirements aside from it being 4.5-gen, using a local AESA radar and leveraging new LRAAMS.

There isn't much to go with here, but if that's the bulk of it, then yes a Hürjet-based fighter could be viable.

I'm not talking about the Hürjet today, but a larger airframe with a more powerful engine suitable for carrier operations. This would have to be 4.5-gen/5-minus.

 

[Sami_1]

That's an interesting take , do you think hurjet based fighter will meet the capabilities required by PAF ? If yes then to what extent ?

South Korea’s Hanwha showed off a prototype of a new engine, one it says will eventually power the KF-21 domestic fighter jet. The company says the prototype is a 15,000lb.-thrust-class turbofan engine. (Aaron Mehta/Breaking Defense)

Regarding the Russian propulsion capacity, only if they find that they want to reach this level.

An additional 25% propulsion capacity with an additional ton of reduction in the weight of the aircraft means more fuel and weapons load, and also with an additional 20% increase in performance, it makes the aircraft more attractive in international marketing, and even to confront Indian aircraft that have better capabilities in general, the Russians did not clarify the weight of the new development, and if they had goals in the past to reduce the weight of the engine to reach the weight level of the French M88 engine, and in the case of improving fuel consumption by reducing it, the performance of the aircraft will be very good.

In particular, what the Russians benefit from, the Russians have lost their markets, and things are no longer monopolistic. The Indians themselves want to produce their own engine, and all the Turks after obtaining Ukrainian assistance and technology.

And if the Russians did not agree, they do not wish for China to take over the project by providing its engines, which need international approval by purchasing from them before using them as a bargaining chip. The Russians sold more than 200 RD-33 engines to Pakistan. Are they losing opportunities to sell more?


The new engine from Hanwha Aerospace will be “on par with GE’s F414“, the engine in the Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornet. (Photo: Hanwha Aerospace)

In international trade and in the arms trade, countries no longer want Monopoly on the sale of the entire product. The higher the demand, the more local components and incentives are provided to the buyer to continue cooperation. Is an additional order from Pakistan for 150 engines not attractive? Are the Russians, in light of the shrinking markets, losing a deal of more than $500 million and another $500 for spare parts? Some believe that countries are reluctant to transfer technology. The matter is simpler than that. The size of the deal is the deciding factor for releasing the technologies or flexibility for you. Do not forget that South Korea is developing a parallel engine with a capacity to push 25,000 pounds. It will also be competitive in the export market in the future.

https://breakingdefense.com/2024/07...t-engine-says-could-enter-service-in-9-years/

https://www.janes.com/osint-insight...-korea-to-develop-new-fighter-aircraft-engine

 

[Michael]

View attachment 84658
South Korea’s Hanwha showed off a prototype of a new engine, one it says will eventually power the KF-21 domestic fighter jet. The company says the prototype is a 15,000lb.-thrust-class turbofan engine. (Aaron Mehta/Breaking Defense)

Regarding the Russian propulsion capacity, only if they find that they want to reach this level.

An additional 25% propulsion capacity with an additional ton of reduction in the weight of the aircraft means more fuel and weapons load, and also with an additional 20% increase in performance, it makes the aircraft more attractive in international marketing, and even to confront Indian aircraft that have better capabilities in general, the Russians did not clarify the weight of the new development, and if they had goals in the past to reduce the weight of the engine to reach the weight level of the French M88 engine, and in the case of improving fuel consumption by reducing it, the performance of the aircraft will be very good.

In particular, what the Russians benefit from, the Russians have lost their markets, and things are no longer monopolistic. The Indians themselves want to produce their own engine, and all the Turks after obtaining Ukrainian assistance and technology.

And if the Russians did not agree, they do not wish for China to take over the project by providing its engines, which need international approval by purchasing from them before using them as a bargaining chip. The Russians sold more than 200 RD-33 engines to Pakistan. Are they losing opportunities to sell more?

View attachment 84659
The new engine from Hanwha Aerospace will be “on par with GE’s F414“, the engine in the Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornet. (Photo: Hanwha Aerospace)

In international trade and in the arms trade, countries no longer want Monopoly on the sale of the entire product. The higher the demand, the more local components and incentives are provided to the buyer to continue cooperation. Is an additional order from Pakistan for 150 engines not attractive? Are the Russians, in light of the shrinking markets, losing a deal of more than $500 million and another $500 for spare parts? Some believe that countries are reluctant to transfer technology. The matter is simpler than that. The size of the deal is the deciding factor for releasing the technologies or flexibility for you. Do not forget that South Korea is developing a parallel engine with a capacity to push 25,000 pounds. It will also be competitive in the export market in the future.

https://breakingdefense.com/2024/07...t-engine-says-could-enter-service-in-9-years/

https://www.janes.com/osint-insight...-korea-to-develop-new-fighter-aircraft-engine

Regarding Russia's military-industrial cooperation with Pakistan, you have overlooked two fatal issues.

1. You need to sort out the international relations between “Russia, China, India and Pakistan”. Before any major change in the international situation, the possibility of any deep military-industrial cooperation between Russia and Pakistan is zero. ------ You can first go to the depth of understanding. JF-17 Russian engine is how to come to Pakistan.

2. Let's ignore the previous question. Russia does not have enough economic conditions to support Pakistan. It is unlikely to provide loans or aid services to Pakistan as China does. Are you sure that Pakistan has enough cash to pay accordingly now?

I don't rate Russia's military industry and technology right now. Many sober people will tell you the answer.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

The PAF hasn't said much about the PFX's requirements aside from it being 4.5-gen, using a local AESA radar and leveraging new LRAAMS.

There isn't much to go with here, but if that's the bulk of it, then yes a Hürjet-based fighter could be viable.

I'm not talking about the Hürjet today, but a larger airframe with a more powerful engine suitable for carrier operations. This would have to be 4.5-gen/5-minus.

For PAF, Don't you think for that enlarged Hurjet / PFX options, WS10 would be better choice than WS19/21? I am not putting Turkish option right now as it will take time. May be in later blocks.

 

[Sami_1]

Regarding Russia's military-industrial cooperation with Pakistan, you have overlooked two fatal issues.

1. You need to sort out the international relations between “Russia, China, India and Pakistan”. Before any major change in the international situation, the possibility of any deep military-industrial cooperation between Russia and Pakistan is zero. ------ You can first go to the depth of understanding. JF-17 Russian engine is how to come to Pakistan.

2. Let's ignore the previous question. Russia does not have enough economic conditions to support Pakistan. It is unlikely to provide loans or aid services to Pakistan as China does. Are you sure that Pakistan has enough cash to pay accordingly now?

I don't rate Russia's military industry and technology right now. Many sober people will tell you the answer.

Regardless, the RD-33 engine is not something strategic for the Russians to complicate relations, but so far the level of the JF-17 fighter is not satisfactory or has a strategic impact on the balance of military power between India and Pakistan, and the same is true for its limited international markets, and since the Russians are suppliers of engines, there is a benefit for the Russian side, as the Russians have an alternative such as China, and the existence of this competition is required to obtain the best international offers. Several years ago, they had a plan to produce 150 RD-33 engines annually to meet the needs of Egypt, Syria and Pakistan. Things are different now from the past. First, Pakistan now depends on Russian oil and derivatives. The Russians were able to neutralize the Indians, as the Indians bought American equipment in large quantities and ignored Russian equipment, and Pakistan is no longer a small country that the Russians ignore. It even wants to buy new Russian air defense systems. The Russians do the same, selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, and there are Russian-Saudi deals that have not been announced. If they were announced, America would be angry with Saudi Arabia. This shows a change in international relations. The Russians are focusing on the south. The Chinese themselves have reduced their military purchases from the Russians, so will they accept? The Russians are shrinking their markets all along the line, especially since selling weapons to Pakistan is an economic advantage compared to losing many markets for Russian weapons, such as Iraq, for example. Look at the matter from an economic perspective. Your words are correct, and there are Indian pressures in the event that India returns as a major arms market for the Russians. The Indians, despite their shortage of fighters, have not moved to solve the RD-33 engine for the LCA TEJAS aircraft, nor for any Russian fighter, meaning that each country looks after its interests. Also, the news on October 30 of Pakistani-Russian cooperation in the field of engines comes in the context of my words. In general, what I mention is related only to my own point of view, which may be correct or incorrect.

 

[Goku-Kun]

The PAF may also consider TEI's 35k lb engine being developed for KAAN. It gives an edge having enough power with the GE-class R&D and manufacturing genre coupled with super-cruising and super-cooling features that come with an FGF. Not to mention all the PAF's leading jets have engines from China and Russia. They may want to diversify....

But it will take its fair share of time as engine tech is not easy to master..