Israel’s Genocide in Gaza | 2023- till present

[Alter_Ego]

What is there to hear? Both Egypt and KSA have some of the largest militaries in the world but both are no match for the combined forces of Israel, USA, NATO and West which was my exact point. Nobody is, certainly nobody in the region. If they were, Palestine would have been liberated and Israel defeated long ago.

As for "petrodollars" (l can see that you live in Norway - a country that became wealthy due to oil), unlike the likes of USA who was built on conquest of native peoples and stealing their resources, 10's of millions of imported African slaves, migrants from across the world including even 3.5 million Arabs, the wealth that Allah (swt) has blessed Arabs with was not stolen from anybody.

So why should we apologize for our wealth?

BTW, nowadays less than 50% of KSA's revenue derives from oil, gas and other resources.

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Our non-oil economy is one of the fastest growing in the world and in the next many years we are predicted to have one of the biggest economic growths (percentage wise) in the world. We are already among the 20 largest economies of the world (G-20).

Also our reforms, which really kickstarted 6-7 years ago have just started. This is just the beginning.

KSA is the 3rd most resource rich country on the planet after Russia and USA and unlike Russia we did not steal 90% of our land from non-Russian, non-Slavic natives in Siberia, Caucasus and elsewhere.

Ranked: Top 10 Countries by Value of All Their Natural Resources

Russia leads the pack with natural resources valued at $75 trillion.

www.visualcapitalist.com

I am not sure if you are trolling or not in regards to weapons. I ask again, which country on the planet (let alone in West Asia) can defeat the combined forces of nuclear armed Israel, USA, NATO, West etc.?

KSA/Arabs should work at developing nuclear weapons and unite into a federal state or 3-4 large regional blocs. This would solve most of the problems. Follow the Chinese path after the century of humiliation. The situations are remarkably similar and Arabs are also the second largest ethnic group in the world after the Han Chinese to make it even more "funny".

I think you misunderstood my viewpoint.

No one here asks KSA and Egypt to go to war against the US directly.

As for fighting and winning against USA in a similar type proxy war: Korean War, which in a dirt poor under-equipped China fought and won against the vastly superior USA+all of its allies.

Middle Easts nations problem have more to do with the region being divided into petty kingdoms. Which is what Europe basically was after the fall of Western half of Roman Empire.

Naturally every ruler will want to secure his/hers position and expand on it too.

China was lucky enough to have a leader like Mao, coming at the right place at a right time. Timing is equally cruicial. You can have a good leader but at bad timing (geostrategically).

 

[Cash gk]

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[Meengla]

With that said, armed struggle will be fruitless for the Palestinians because of the great imbalance of power. Their only hope is non violent action and although there were a couple Palestinian activists who advocated for this, it has not really caught on. Part of it is also because the Palestinians have been largely segregated, non violent protest has its limitations as far as effectiveness.

Armed struggle was the only way and unless Syria's recent changes spring a surprise, the October 7, 2023 may well be the last chance to break out of the Israeli stranglehold but that has certainly been backstabbed at least for now.
You have yourself thrown doubts about 'non violent' protests and they are valid doubts. Look at the Quisling regime of Mahmood Abbas for the 'non violent' protests: His people's land is being stolen rapidly and he can't even leave Ramallah without the Israeli permission.

 

[Alter_Ego]

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Barbaric violent zionists and their supporters.
Numbers dont lie.

Point fingers at everyone else.. dress up in fancy clothes and costumes...eat with fork and knife or whatever they do to make these vile creatures present themselves as civlized.
Truth is, only a barbaric soulless inhumane people can go and mass genocide a whole people the way it has been done in Gaza.

 

[_Arabia_]

I think you misunderstood my viewpoint.

No one here asks KSA and Egypt to go to war against the US directly.

As for fighting and winning against USA in a similar type proxy war: Korean War, which in a dirt poor under-equipped China fought and won against the vastly superior USA+all of its allies.

Middle Easts nations problem have more to do with the region being divided into petty kingdoms. Which is what Europe basically was after the fall of Western half of Roman Empire.

Naturally every ruler will want to secure his/hers position and expand on it too.

China was lucky enough to have a leader like Mao, coming at the right place at a right time. Timing is equally cruicial. You can have a good leader but at bad timing (geostrategically).

The Korean War was 70 + years ago. A totally different world. It occurred next to China and just after the WW2. China had 2-3 times the manpower. Nor did they really "win" as the US/West actually stopped the communist Koreans from conquering all of Korea. They had control of 95%. Later they were kicked out and this is how the South and North was created.

Look at this animation:

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I agree with the fragmentation, this is my main talking point if you have noticed.

China was ruled by highly autocratic emperors prior and during the century of humiliation before the civil war started. Later the two waring factions (communists and nationalists) pretty much took the same playbook (1 party rule/authoritarianism) and replaced it with Emperor worship/holy ruler figure that was common in all of East Asia. Remember the divine role of the Japanese emperor during WW2?

The Middle East was in comparison much more fragmented.

Barbaric violent zionists and their supporters.
Numbers dont lie.

Point fingers at everyone else.. dress up in fancy clothes and costumes...eat with fork and knife or whatever they do to make these vile creatures present themselves as civlized.
Truth is, only a barbaric soulless inhumane people can go and mass genocide a whole people the way it has been done in Gaza.

Beyond vile. Israel is a sick society. No other conclusions can be drawn. I wonder what the hell the Palestinian Arabs, "Israeli Bedouins", "Druze" and other non-Jewish minorities are thinking or doing to change Israel from within? Don't see much happening unfortunately.

Also how the useless Fatah and Abbas can still be ruling the West Bank with zero accomplishments 20 + years later is also astonishing.

 

[Meengla]

Also how the useless Fatah and Abbas can still be ruling the West Bank with zero accomplishments 20 + years later is also astonishing.

I remember when the Oslo Account were made 30 years ago! Even then Noam Chomsky said something like the Palestinian Authority's role would be the policemen for Israel's occupation--not far from the Warsaw Ghetto Jews who were the guards! How history repeats itself!
PS. You have some interesting input here but members who have profile names with non alphanumeric characters like underscores or non-western characters potentially deprive themselves of being quoted / found. Just an FYI.

 

[Alter_Ego]

Palestinian Arabs, "Israeli Bedouins", "Druze" and other non-Jewish minorities

Pacified through intimidation and propaganda

Fatah and Abbas

Also pacified, through bribing the white haired FATMAN


There are really two good reasons for Israels existence and its wielding of power in ME, and western minds:

1: Its a colonial outpost serving the interests of the West, especially the USA.
2: Its not a colonial outpost and an actual independent jewish zionist state.

If no.1 is true, then no. 2 is false.

Cant be both a colonial outpost AND a truly independent jewish state.
If no.1 is true, then it explains the power it wields in the west and vice versa.

If no. 2 is true, then no.1 is false
No. 2 being true inevetably also means that zionists control the west, especially The USA.

 

[Meengla]

There are really two good reasons for Israels existence and its wielding of power in ME, and western minds:
1: Its a colonial outpost serving the interests of the West, especially the USA.
2: Its not a colonial outpost and an actual independent jewish zionist state.
If no.1 is true, then no. 2 is false.
Cant be both a colonial outpost AND a truly independent jewish state.
If no.1 is true, then it explains the power it wields in the west and vice versa.
If no. 2 is true, then no.1 is false
No. 2 being true inevetably also means that zionists control the west, especially The USA.

From my following the Israeli media, while they prefer not be facing the ICJ/ICC music, they are content to have just America in their corner; through America, many countries in Europe, the Middle East, and even as far away as some tiny Pacific nations, South Korea and Argentina can do Israel's bidding directly or indirectly.
But, to your binary choices: Israel is an independent state as well as a colonial outpost however the independence is very fragile because it totally relies on the American backing; even Israel's nukes won't ensure its survival otherwise.
PS. While we may rightly weep for the dead Palestinians and the Lebanese, perhaps similar catastrophe is starting in Syria which may extend to Iraq, but I hope I am wrong. The War Machine is Washington doesn't care for human lives at all: Look at the death and destruction in the Ukraine war on both sides! It didn't matter if they were White Christians or not.

 

[_Arabia_]

@Alter_Ego @Meengla

Israel is a post-WW2/Holocaust European/American "guilt trip" that they created at a time when there were no remaining Western colonies in existence in the region outside of French occupied Algeria.

After supposedly murdering millions of European Jews, they wanted nothing to do with the post-WW2 problematic of compensation, combined with general century long dislike of Jews, so they preferred to get rid of the problem (Jews) and at the same time set up a permanently loyal and grateful pro-Western outpost in the region.

That and many powerful Jewish families and politicians long having dreamt and worked for the establishment of a Jewish state. This bankrolling also helped.

I don't know if Jews in the US were as powerful prior to 1948 in the US (I highly doubt it) but eventually the Jews in the US gained a stronghold in the US to ensure that Israel would always be under the US umbrella.

Defenseless Palestinians unfortunately became the victims. Could have been anyone in the region.

As I see it, Jews should have had a chunk of Germany and called it Israel. That would have made the most sense. Say for instance Bavaria.

This is my quick "superficial" understanding without having studied the topic in great detail from various angles and sources. Just based on my historical knowledge and common sense.

Encourage anyone to call me out if I am completely wrong here, I myself am curious to learn what the real "truth" is.

 

[_Arabia_]

Palestinians in the West Bank need to rise up before it becomes too late. Somebody within Fatah (a more dynamic, younger, visionary, less corrupt) leadership should make a bloodless coup and topple Abbas. Every armed Palestinian faction should unite under the Hamas banner (as the strongest group) irrespective of ideology and politics or if not possible the creation of a new unified Palestinian banner group. It does not really matter what is what here but the aims.

They should be coordinating every major strategic decision in common. Get the Palestinians within the occupied territories onboard and the ones in Jordan who should be playing a greater role. Add those in Lebanon as well.

As I wrote earlier, some kind of new creative massive protests across the entire area (general hunger strikes), peaceful human shields and general civil disobedience, if implemented long enough and in coordinated fashion, could potentially break the occupation. I don't think that the entire world would be able or could afford to look silently if the Jews started massacring people. No longer able to hide behind Hamas, October 7 and other nonsense.

Use some of the South African playbook.

Refusing to leave the territories is also self-evident and something the Palestinians have done bravely. Marry and establish large families and install in them a quest for Palestinian statehood (already something that is done) even more fervently.

Get the mostly successful Palestinian expat community onboard to organize them and speak with 1 tongue. There are many rich Palestinians in the Arab world and West. No reason why they cannot do what the Jews are doing in order to gain favors and influence abroad.

Hamas alone in small Gaza cannot be expected to bear the entire burden. It requires a combined effort from Palestinians, the region and world.

This insanity should not be ongoing for much longer, nobody can accept it or afford it. People deserve dignity and peace.

 

[Meengla]

As I wrote earlier, some kind of new creative massive protests across the entire area (general hunger strikes), peaceful human shields and general civil disobedience, if implemented long enough and in coordinated fashion, could potentially break the occupation. I don't think that the entire world would be able or could afford to look silently if the Jews started massacring people. No longer able to hide behind Hamas, October 7 and other nonsense.
Use some of the South African playbook.

Plenty of members have mentioned South Africa but I don't think that applies. South Africa didn't have the stranglehold on the American media, finance, and political class, while Israelis have that almost totally. South Africa didn't have 18-20% Evangelical Christians behind South Africa. South Africa was nowhere near as tied with the Military Industrial Complex as Israel and its backers are. And South Africa faced a strong African American lobby in America--that lobby, along with AIPAC, AARP is one of the most powerful lobbies in America.
As to the bolded part: The world has just looked on while tens of thousands of Gazans and thousands of Lebanese were slaughtered. Firstly, the Palestinians in the West Bank have to rise up as a group but, as @tower9 said above, they are so divided into small communities, and so thoroughly spied on / infiltrated that Israelis would quash the uprising. Israelis have stolen the West Bank by bribes, threats, isolation and suffocation while the puppet Palestinian Authority has been content to keep collecting the few morsels Americans and the EU throw toward them.

 

[_Arabia_]

Plenty of members have mentioned South Africa but I don't think that applies. South Africa didn't have the stranglehold on the American media, finance, and political class, while Israelis have that almost totally. South Africa didn't have 18-20% Evangelical Christians behind South Africa. South Africa was nowhere near as tied with the Military Industrial Complex as Israel and its backers are. And South Africa faced a strong African American lobby in America--that lobby, along with AIPAC, AARP is one of the most powerful lobbies in America.
As to the bolded part: The world has just looked on while tens of thousands of Gazans and thousands of Lebanese were slaughtered. Firstly, the Palestinians in the West Bank have to rise up as a group but, as @tower9 said above, they are so divided into small communities, and so thoroughly spied on / infiltrated that Israelis would quash the uprising. Israelis have stolen the West Bank by bribes, threats, isolation and suffocation while the puppet Palestinian Authority has been content to keep collecting the few morsels Americans and the EU throw toward them.

My impression is that the almost total Jewish political stronghold in the US is under threat and most likely unsustainable. Partially due to the rapid demographical changes that the US is undergoing as well as the rise of social media and most young Americans not supporting what their government is doing in regards to Palestine.

How that will translate into US politics in say 10-15 years is guesswork.

I don't think that what Israel has been doing for the past 14 months would be as encouraged and as accepted in say 10-20 years time as it is today within the power circles of the US.

Mostly because it is not in the US interests to keep alienating a huge and vastly growing Arab population in the region.

Ironically Israeli policies are not helping Israel long-term either.

My comparison with South Africa was more in relation to new drastic non-armed measures that have yet to be implemented. Widespread coordinated hunger strikes across Palestine, within Israel, Jordan, laying off work, massive peaceful "human shield" protests etc. could potentially have an effect. At least the West would not be able to spin the narrative (Palestinian = terrorists that want to genocide Jews etc. rhetoric.) as they have been doing from the very beginning.

Spot on about the Fatah administration in the West Bank. it is sad to see however to their defense, they have been dealt some extremely bad cards.

 

[Alter_Ego]

From my following the Israeli media, while they prefer not be facing the ICJ/ICC music, they are content to have just America in their corner; through America, many countries in Europe, the Middle East, and even as far away as some tiny Pacific nations, South Korea and Argentina can do Israel's bidding directly or indirectly.
But, to your binary choices: Israel is an independent state as well as a colonial outpost however the independence is very fragile because it totally relies on the American backing; even Israel's nukes won't ensure its survival otherwise.
PS. While we may rightly weep for the dead Palestinians and the Lebanese, perhaps similar catastrophe is starting in Syria which may extend to Iraq, but I hope I am wrong. The War Machine is Washington doesn't care for human lives at all: Look at the death and destruction in the Ukraine war on both sides! It didn't matter if they were White Christians or not.

The rulers in US or any other country for that matter, dosent care about life, muslim or xtian. Its all just a numbers game. Because we are being ruled by sociopaths. It has been shown that statiscally the higher up someone is on the power ladder, the greater chance they are sociopaths.

Its probably true its a combination of both 1st and 2nd scenario.
But that also means Israel really dosent belong in the middle east.

Wether zionist jews like it or not, they have to decide for themselves, if they really think Jews belong to the ME or not. Neither the West or anyone else will be there forever to protect them from backlash. One can only get away with antisocial behaviour to a certain extent before somebody wants revenge. And that revenge can be pretty severe in an area like ME.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

….
As I wrote earlier, some kind of new creative massive protests across the entire area (general hunger strikes), peaceful human shields and general civil disobedience, if implemented long enough and in coordinated fashion, could potentially break the occupation. I don't think that the entire world would be able or could afford to look silently if the Jews started massacring people. No longer able to hide behind Hamas, October 7 and other nonsense.

Use some of the South African playbook.

……

This is Gandhi’s play book much before it became the South African play book.

Three decades ago I was discussing this exact same thing with a Palestinian student in New Delhi. As context, India had close ties with the PLO for years, Yasser Arafat was a much admired figure here, and a number of Palestinians were living/ studying in India.

We discussed a civil disobedience movement, based on non violent techniques to combat the Israeli regime which was militarily so much stronger. The idea was that these methods would neutralise Israel’s military advantage totally, force them to play on the Palestinian turf. Any inevitable brutality or violent state response would be portrayed internationally as evil, unjust, and sap Israeli credibility and morale. The portrayal of a military / violent butcher against a peaceful protestor is a powerful one.

. It would also over time destroy Israel’s international credibility, while being a sustainable long term strategy for the Palestinians.

Obviously there are many nuances to this, and it’s not perfect. You want to keep the non violent resistance going, and not end up like the PA today.

But we’ve already seen where violent resistance leads. Even if one prefers an alternate strategy, there is a need for a rethink, at the very least.

 

[R2D2]

My impression is that the almost total Jewish political stronghold in the US is under threat and most likely unsustainable. Partially due to the rapid demographical changes that the US is undergoing as well as the rise of social media and most young Americans not supporting what their government is doing in regards to Palestine.

How that will translate into US politics in say 10-15 years is guesswork.

I don't think that what Israel has been doing for the past 14 months would be as encouraged and as accepted in say 10-20 years time as it is today within the power circles of the US.

Mostly because it is not in the US interests to keep alienating a huge and vastly growing Arab population in the region.

Ironically Israeli policies are not helping Israel long-term either.

My comparison with South Africa was more in relation to new drastic non-armed measures that have yet to be implemented. Widespread coordinated hunger strikes across Palestine, within Israel, Jordan, laying off work, massive peaceful "human shield" protests etc. could potentially have an effect. At least the West would not be able to spin the narrative (Palestinian = terrorists that want to genocide Jews etc. rhetoric.) as they have been doing from the very beginning.

Spot on about the Fatah administration in the West Bank. it is sad to see however to their defense, they have been dealt some extremely bad cards.

At a time of war you are advocating non-violent means. This is the time for the West Bank and the Palestinians and Bedouins' inside Israel to rise up to fight the Israelis with guns.