PAF J-35AE - News, Updates and Discussions

[Mrc]

About time:
The J-35A is still currently in the testing phase (military testing), it has not yet reached the production finalization phase. After it has been tested by PLAAF for enough time, the military test reports will be fed back to SAC, who will recalibrate the J-35 based on these reports until PLAAF is fully satisfied. Only then will the production J-35A be finalized.
The foreign trade version of the J-35 will have some adjustments related to the J-35A, and the relevant parts of the J-35A will be replaced with the foreign trade version.After SAC finalizes the foreign trade version of the J-35, it will invite the target customers to experience and test the J-35. Only after this will the contract be signed.
Obviously, these efforts will take a longer time. Even at “Chinese speed”, we will not be able to deliver 40 J-35s to PAF in two years.
In fact, I don't think all versions of the J-35 series (foreign trade, PLAAF and PLAN) will be able to reach a total of 40 in two years.

About the quantity:
Based on current analysis, the cost price of the J-35A is about $80-100 million. The J-35s sold to PAF will not cost less than $100 million per unit (if PAF voluntarily requests a lower configuration, the price could be less than $100 million. But this is less likely).The unit price of the J-35 foreign trade version is estimated to be between $100-150 million.
40x J-35, 20x WS-21 spare engines, routine maintenance parts, associated weapons and ammunition, training costs ...... Total value is about $8-10 billion.
If PAF wants these 40x J-35s to be fully operationally capable, it will require significant changes to PAF's existing combat systems. They include:
Improvements to C4ISR: Early Warning Aircraft, Military Data Link, Combat Command Center, Military Supercomputer ..... ...PAF's existing systems cannot fully utilize the J-35's operational capabilities.
Infrastructure: dedicated hangars, maintenance facilities ......
These will cost no less than the J-35 procurement.
One thing is clear, China will never allow Pakistan to involve a third country in any of the J-35's affairs. At most, China will allow Pakistan to use Sino-Pakistani co-produced weapons or airborne equipment on the J-35 (including Pakistan's imitation of Chinese weapons or airborne equipment), but will not allow any third country to intervene. For example, Turkish or Turkish Pakistani co-produced weapons/airborne equipment, they will never be allowed on the J-35. This will add some cost to the PAF to use.
In a comprehensive analysis, the complete cost of 40 J-35s would be around $15-20 billion.
So, do you think Pakistan will be able to meet this cost?

PAF may be part of weapons integration and final testing phase, local systems most definitely be integrated, so watch n see

 

[iblini]

Oh, my good old friend Cute Orca again

Seems like they are all holding back so hard...

 

[SABRE]

Pak to aquire 40 J35s in 2 years time?
There is no doubt that this is 100% fake news, no matter where it comes from! Even if it was released by the PAF Chief of General Staff himself, it would still be fake news!

Its probably an order for 40 aircraft with the first batch of 2, 4, or 6 aircraft arriving in two years time. Reset will be delivered gradually thereafter.

 

[lightning f57]

About time:
The J-35A is still currently in the testing phase (military testing), it has not yet reached the production finalization phase. After it has been tested by PLAAF for enough time, the military test reports will be fed back to SAC, who will recalibrate the J-35 based on these reports until PLAAF is fully satisfied. Only then will the production J-35A be finalized.
The foreign trade version of the J-35 will have some adjustments related to the J-35A, and the relevant parts of the J-35A will be replaced with the foreign trade version.After SAC finalizes the foreign trade version of the J-35, it will invite the target customers to experience and test the J-35. Only after this will the contract be signed.
Obviously, these efforts will take a longer time. Even at “Chinese speed”, we will not be able to deliver 40 J-35s to PAF in two years.
In fact, I don't think all versions of the J-35 series (foreign trade, PLAAF and PLAN) will be able to reach a total of 40 in two years.

About the quantity:
Based on current analysis, the cost price of the J-35A is about $80-100 million. The J-35s sold to PAF will not cost less than $100 million per unit (if PAF voluntarily requests a lower configuration, the price could be less than $100 million. But this is less likely).The unit price of the J-35 foreign trade version is estimated to be between $100-150 million.
40x J-35, 20x WS-21 spare engines, routine maintenance parts, associated weapons and ammunition, training costs ...... Total value is about $8-10 billion.
If PAF wants these 40x J-35s to be fully operationally capable, it will require significant changes to PAF's existing combat systems. They include:
Improvements to C4ISR: Early Warning Aircraft, Military Data Link, Combat Command Center, Military Supercomputer ..... ...PAF's existing systems cannot fully utilize the J-35's operational capabilities.
Infrastructure: dedicated hangars, maintenance facilities ......
These will cost no less than the J-35 procurement.
One thing is clear, China will never allow Pakistan to involve a third country in any of the J-35's affairs. At most, China will allow Pakistan to use Sino-Pakistani co-produced weapons or airborne equipment on the J-35 (including Pakistan's imitation of Chinese weapons or airborne equipment), but will not allow any third country to intervene. For example, Turkish or Turkish Pakistani co-produced weapons/airborne equipment, they will never be allowed on the J-35. This will add some cost to the PAF to use.
In a comprehensive analysis, the complete cost of 40 J-35s would be around $15-20 billion.
So, do you think Pakistan will be able to meet this cost?

I would say the purchase and implementation of the infrastructure and weapon systems will be over a long period of time. So these costs will likely be spread over a decade or more which makes buying 40 planes reasonable.

 

[SABRE]

This literally means nothing btwView attachment 89148

Does PAF intends to acquire Starship Enterprise NX-01 or NCC-1701 as launch platform?

 

[lightning f57]

40x J-35, 20x WS-21 spare engines

On the question of engines, I am assuming the WS-19 will be superior and Chinese airforce, navy will be prioritised. However once sufficient numbers are made, do you see any issues with countries like Pakistan switching out or buying further batches with WS19s.

If you compare the J35 program, the US supplies same engines to all its allies. This is economical and maintenance wise useful in the long run to use same common engines.

 

[Michael]

China will offer "soft loans' to countries like PAF in order to purchase the J-35A and I doubt that PAF would pay more than cost price, which will anyway be at most 20% higher than PLAAF version.

China does provide loans to many countries. However, these loans are based on the credit of the country and, moreover, the amount of the loan is not unlimited. The amount of the loan is based on the project and their relationship with China.
Pakistan's strategic threat elevated when India acquired Rafale fighter jets. Based on China-Pakistan relationship and India's situation, China provided J-10CE to Pakistan at internal price and 80% of the total contract was Chinese loan. This was the most favorable package based on the international environment and China-Pakistan relations at that time. Sources at ------ say that the down payment for PAF's J-10CE purchase was all provided by the mysterious gold master behind it.
Currently, PAF's loan for the purchase of J-10CE is still outstanding. India has not acquired a more advanced fighter jet. India keeps showing goodwill to China and Sino-Indian relations are easing.
Do you think the mysterious gold master behind Pakistan will still provide high down payment for PAF? Will China still provide huge military sales loans to Pakistan?

And as regards the other infrastructure to fully utilise the J-35A that is a "nice to have" and not "must have'. Pakistan and other countries will slowly fill in the gaps after they purchase J-35A.

The ones I listed are the base requirements for a 5th generation fighter. They are not the difference between “nice to have” and “must have”.
The Superior Avionics for Battle Awareness and Effectiveness of the 5th Generation Fighter requires a vastly advanced military information network. When it is not supported by these conditions, it does not perform at all as well as 4th generation fighters. So why would you spend huge amounts of money on it? Why not buy a better performing 4th gen fighter for less money?

China will want to sell as many export version J-35As mainly for strategic reasons and not just to make money.

AVIC's first priority is to meet the needs of PLAs. Currently, China still has a large number of old fighters waiting to be replaced, and it will take AVIC at least many years of hard work to replace them.The PLAAF still has a large number of old fighters in service, such as the J-7, J-8, JH-7, Su-27, J-10A, and J-11.
Exporting fighters is only a secondary task for AVIC. They don't have any need to lower their trading conditions to beg for foreign trade orders.

PAF may be part of weapons integration and final testing phase, local systems most definitely be integrated, so watch n see

On this point, we don't have to wait. The answer to it is yes.
AVIC will allow PAF to use Sino-Pakistani cooperation, Pakistani produced weapons on J-35 and provide open data interface for J-35 to access PAF's tactical command system.
But AVIC will never allow PAF to provide these facilities to a third party, much less allow third party weapons or airborne equipment to be plugged into the J-35.Even weapons or airborne equipment that Pakistan has partnered with a third party will not be allowed to be plugged into the J-35.

Certain countries with very close ties to Pakistan have access to a lot of military technology from China through military technical cooperation with Pakistan. China is very well aware of these situations. Ordinary military technology, China can turn a blind eye to. But the most advanced Chinese military technology, this route will completely lose any possibility. If Pakistan still wants to continue to obtain advanced military technology from China, it must put that idea to rest.

Its probably an order for 40 aircraft with the first batch of 2, 4, or 6 aircraft arriving in two years time. Reset will be delivered gradually thereafter.

With SAC's current production capacity, the J-35 could easily exceed 100 units per year once all tests are completed and finalized. 40 J-35 orders would be very easy for SAC to fulfill. The more batches they separate means the higher the cost.

On the question of engines, I am assuming the WS-19 will be superior and Chinese airforce, navy will be prioritised. However once sufficient numbers are made, do you see any issues with countries like Pakistan switching out or buying further batches with WS19s.

I have responded to this question before.
PAF can only get J-35 (WS-21) now, it cannot get J-35 (WS-19). This situation is valid at least for many years to come.
As of today, the WS-19 is still in development. It is currently in the military testing phase and its final production version is still to be determined. When its final production version is finalized, the first priority will be to meet the requirements of the J-35A (WS-19), i.e., to meet the requirements of the PLAAF. This will take many years and until then it cannot be exported.

 

[UKBengali]

AVIC's first priority is to meet the needs of PLAs. Currently, China still has a large number of old fighters waiting to be replaced, and it will take AVIC at least many years of hard work to replace them.The PLAAF still has a large number of old fighters in service, such as the J-7, J-8, JH-7, Su-27, J-10A, and J-11.
Exporting fighters is only a secondary task for AVIC. They don't have any need to lower their trading conditions to beg for foreign trade orders.

But AVIC has to submit to overall Chinese geopolitical interests.

If CCP decides that it wants to push as many export version J-35As to as many countries as possible, then AVIC will try to fulfil this request as best it can.

You think just in terms of money and cash flow for AVIC without understanding it is at the end of the day a company that is sub-ordinate to China's geopolitical interest.

China can buy a lot of geopolitical influence and also weaken the US position by supplying this fighter to key friendly countries.

 

[UKBengali]

The ones I listed are the base requirements for a 5th generation fighter. They are not the difference between “nice to have” and “must have”.
The Superior Avionics for Battle Awareness and Effectiveness of the 5th Generation Fighter requires a vastly advanced military information network. When it is not supported by these conditions, it does not perform at all as well as 4th generation fighters. So why would you spend huge amounts of money on it? Why not buy a better performing 4th gen fighter for less money?

This does not make much sense.

As long as the J-35s can "talk" to each other, AWACs and ground control, they will still be far superior to 4+ generation fighters.

You are going down the "rabbit hole" of fully utilising the capabilities of the J-35A and the whole sensor network and information sharing that Chinese will want to use from day one.

Like I say, countries after this "bare minimum" infrastructure can decide to add some or maybe all of these "extras" as and when they decide it is worth it for them.

 

[Michael]

But AVIC has to submit to overall Chinese geopolitical interests.
If CCP decides that it wants to push as many export version J-35As to as many countries as possible, then AVIC will try to fulfil this request as best it can.
You think just in terms of money and cash flow for AVIC without understanding it is at the end of the day a company that is sub-ordinate to China's geopolitical interest.
China can buy a lot of geopolitical influence and also weaken the US position by supplying this fighter to key friendly countries.

You are not clear about the current situation in China.

All large state-owned enterprises in China are standardized commercial enterprises that are self-financing. They handle both domestic and international orders the same way. Their day-to-day operations are conducted in full accordance with standard business rules. Orders with special incentives signed on behalf of the Chinese government are handled by the Chinese government. The Chinese government usually fills in the difference to these state-owned enterprises by means of gap-filling or project subsidies. The SOEs involved in these projects do not get a penny less.

MIIT and SASAC, as the competent authorities of AVIC, they also have no right to intervene in the day-to-day operations of AVIC. For AVIC, both PLAAF and PAF are standard customers. They prioritize whichever order is bigger and more profitable.

China's national interest is of course prioritized. However, the Chinese government will still base its internal regulation on basic business rules. This is fundamental to China's current economic development and social stability, and no one or nothing can violate this rule.

You are using the logic of western political theory to analyze China, which is a typical miscalculation.

As long as the J-35s can "talk" to each other, AWACs and ground control, they will still be far superior to 4+ generation fighters.
You are going down the "rabbit hole" of fully utilising the capabilities of the J-35A and the whole sensor network and information sharing that Chinese will want to use from day one.
Like I say, countries after this "bare minimum" infrastructure can decide to add some or maybe all of these "extras" as and when they decide it is worth it for them.

There is no need to argue this issue.
Please go ahead and consult the “Criteria for 5th Generation Fighters”, i.e. what kind of fighter can be called a 5th generation fighter.

 

[UKBengali]

There is no need to argue this issue.
Please go ahead and consult the “Criteria for 5th Generation Fighters”, i.e. what kind of fighter can be called a 5th generation fighter.

You just contradict yourself over a few posts.

I just said why all those extra infrastructure and "features" are not required for a 5th generation fighter like J-35A to be much superior than any 4+ generation fighter.

Don't think the buyer country cares whether the seller China will then call the fighter "5th generation".

 

[mythbuster]

China does provide loans to many countries. However, these loans are based on the credit of the country and, moreover, the amount of the loan is not unlimited. The amount of the loan is based on the project and their relationship with China.
Pakistan's strategic threat elevated when India acquired Rafale fighter jets. Based on China-Pakistan relationship and India's situation, China provided J-10CE to Pakistan at internal price and 80% of the total contract was Chinese loan. This was the most favorable package based on the international environment and China-Pakistan relations at that time. Sources at ------ say that the down payment for PAF's J-10CE purchase was all provided by the mysterious gold master behind it.
Currently, PAF's loan for the purchase of J-10CE is still outstanding. India has not acquired a more advanced fighter jet. India keeps showing goodwill to China and Sino-Indian relations are easing.
Do you think the mysterious gold master behind Pakistan will still provide high down payment for PAF? Will China still provide huge military sales loans to Pakistan?


The ones I listed are the base requirements for a 5th generation fighter. They are not the difference between “nice to have” and “must have”.
The Superior Avionics for Battle Awareness and Effectiveness of the 5th Generation Fighter requires a vastly advanced military information network. When it is not supported by these conditions, it does not perform at all as well as 4th generation fighters. So why would you spend huge amounts of money on it? Why not buy a better performing 4th gen fighter for less money?


AVIC's first priority is to meet the needs of PLAs. Currently, China still has a large number of old fighters waiting to be replaced, and it will take AVIC at least many years of hard work to replace them.The PLAAF still has a large number of old fighters in service, such as the J-7, J-8, JH-7, Su-27, J-10A, and J-11.
Exporting fighters is only a secondary task for AVIC. They don't have any need to lower their trading conditions to beg for foreign trade orders.


On this point, we don't have to wait. The answer to it is yes.
AVIC will allow PAF to use Sino-Pakistani cooperation, Pakistani produced weapons on J-35 and provide open data interface for J-35 to access PAF's tactical command system.
But AVIC will never allow PAF to provide these facilities to a third party, much less allow third party weapons or airborne equipment to be plugged into the J-35.Even weapons or airborne equipment that Pakistan has partnered with a third party will not be allowed to be plugged into the J-35.

Certain countries with very close ties to Pakistan have access to a lot of military technology from China through military technical cooperation with Pakistan. China is very well aware of these situations. Ordinary military technology, China can turn a blind eye to. But the most advanced Chinese military technology, this route will completely lose any possibility. If Pakistan still wants to continue to obtain advanced military technology from China, it must put that idea to rest.


With SAC's current production capacity, the J-35 could easily exceed 100 units per year once all tests are completed and finalized. 40 J-35 orders would be very easy for SAC to fulfill. The more batches they separate means the higher the cost.


I have responded to this question before.
PAF can only get J-35 (WS-21) now, it cannot get J-35 (WS-19). This situation is valid at least for many years to come.
As of today, the WS-19 is still in development. It is currently in the military testing phase and its final production version is still to be determined. When its final production version is finalized, the first priority will be to meet the requirements of the J-35A (WS-19), i.e., to meet the requirements of the PLAAF. This will take many years and until then it cannot be exported.

Couple of things I have noticed .............1 ) you talk with such conviction and authority as if you are the official spokesman for the govt of China ..are you ? .........2) reading your posts it seems China is increasingly adopting the attitude and behavior of America vis a vis Pakistan and is playing hard ball with her ...is that the right conclusion ?

 

[Michael]

You just contradict yourself over a few posts.
I just said why all those extra infrastructure and "features" are not required for a 5th generation fighter like J-35A to be much superior than any 4+ generation fighter.
Don't think the buyer country cares whether the seller China will then call the fighter "5th generation".

Okay, I'll analyze this in more detail.

1. Stealth
This is one of the typical characteristics of 5th Gen fighters. It in order to maximize stealth performance, it cannot use external weapons while in a state of war. This would severely damage stealth performance. This means that it has a much lower payload than the 4th Gen fighter when in a state of war. Of course, you could have it mount external weapons and use it as a 4th Gen fighter.
It's like you're fighting in the dark wearing night vision. You can spot the enemy, but the enemy can't see you. However, you have to suffer the side effects of night vision. ------ restricted field of view width and more weight on your head.

2. Superior Avionics for Battle Awareness and Effectiveness
This is the real core capability of the 5th Gen Fighter, and one of the hardest parts of it to realize. Its goal is to make the battlefield transparent to your side in one direction.
It relies on the fighter's own advanced sensors and detection equipment, detection from satellites, detection from other aircraft, detection from ground equipment, and other huge sources of detection, as well as a variety of integrated intelligence from the command center, through the onboard computers and the command center's supercomputer for comprehensive analysis and judgment, and finally displayed on the onboard display and helmet display. These capabilities require very large information networks and high-speed data chains.

Many countries buy the F-35 and actually use the U.S./NATO information network. These countries do not have the capability to build their own military information networks. Developed European countries have collectively abandoned 5th Gen fighters, not because they can't solve the stealth problem, but because they don't have the capability to build their own military information network entirely (for a number of reasons, including the fact that the US won't allow it). As for certain countries that claim to have developed their own 5th Gen fighters, I don't want to discuss it.

China recognizes the 4S standard set by the US military. China officially calls the J-35 a 5th Gen fighter. The J-35 is a 5th Gen fighter built exactly to the 4S standard (super cruise capability to be confirmed). A modern military information network is a must for the J-35 unless the customer voluntarily reduces the configuration of the J-35.

Couple of things I have noticed .............1 ) you talk with such conviction and authority as if you are the official spokesman for the govt of China ..are you ? .........2) reading your posts it seems China is increasingly adopting the attitude and behavior of America vis a vis Pakistan and is playing hard ball with her ...is that the right conclusion ?

First, my personal position. many Pakistanis on PDF know my position on Pakistan. I don't need to reiterate it again. I am just an ordinary Chinese man and I do not have any military or military-industrial background.

Secondly, I believe that the current China-Pakistan relationship is very friendly. Despite some obstacles, the foundation of China-Pakistan relations has not been shaken. However, we still need to look at China-Pakistan relations objectively. It is still a country-to-country relationship.

Let me give an example.
Since the establishment of friendly relations between Pakistan and China, China has never established military cooperation with Pakistan's imaginary enemy (India). Right?
However, Pakistan has been having a lot of military cooperation with China's imaginary enemy (US) and both sides even have long term military cooperation agreements. Pakistan also has very deep and very close military-technical cooperation with another country (Turkey) that has been messing with China for a long time. Yet China has shown understanding and has not protested. Right?
Think differently, if you were in the position of the Chinese, how would you treat Pakistan?

I don't mean to point fingers. I just want my friends in Pakistan to look at these issues more rationally.

 

[mythbuster]

Okay, I'll analyze this in more detail.

1. Stealth
This is one of the typical characteristics of 5th Gen fighters. It in order to maximize stealth performance, it cannot use external weapons while in a state of war. This would severely damage stealth performance. This means that it has a much lower payload than the 4th Gen fighter when in a state of war. Of course, you could have it mount external weapons and use it as a 4th Gen fighter.
It's like you're fighting in the dark wearing night vision. You can spot the enemy, but the enemy can't see you. However, you have to suffer the side effects of night vision. ------ restricted field of view width and more weight on your head.

2. Superior Avionics for Battle Awareness and Effectiveness
This is the real core capability of the 5th Gen Fighter, and one of the hardest parts of it to realize. Its goal is to make the battlefield transparent to your side in one direction.
It relies on the fighter's own advanced sensors and detection equipment, detection from satellites, detection from other aircraft, detection from ground equipment, and other huge sources of detection, as well as a variety of integrated intelligence from the command center, through the onboard computers and the command center's supercomputer for comprehensive analysis and judgment, and finally displayed on the onboard display and helmet display. These capabilities require very large information networks and high-speed data chains.

Many countries buy the F-35 and actually use the U.S./NATO information network. These countries do not have the capability to build their own military information networks. Developed European countries have collectively abandoned 5th Gen fighters, not because they can't solve the stealth problem, but because they don't have the capability to build their own military information network entirely (for a number of reasons, including the fact that the US won't allow it). As for certain countries that claim to have developed their own 5th Gen fighters, I don't want to discuss it.

China recognizes the 4S standard set by the US military. China officially calls the J-35 a 5th Gen fighter. The J-35 is a 5th Gen fighter built exactly to the 4S standard (super cruise capability to be confirmed). A modern military information network is a must for the J-35 unless the customer voluntarily reduces the configuration of the J-35.


First, my personal position. many Pakistanis on PDF know my position on Pakistan. I don't need to reiterate it again. I am just an ordinary Chinese man and I do not have any military or military-industrial background.

Secondly, I believe that the current China-Pakistan relationship is very friendly. Despite some obstacles, the foundation of China-Pakistan relations has not been shaken. However, we still need to look at China-Pakistan relations objectively. It is still a country-to-country relationship.

Let me give an example.
Since the establishment of friendly relations between Pakistan and China, China has never established military cooperation with Pakistan's imaginary enemy (India). Right?
However, Pakistan has been having a lot of military cooperation with China's imaginary enemy (US) and both sides even have long term military cooperation agreements. Pakistan also has very deep and very close military-technical cooperation with another country (Turkey) that has been messing with China for a long time. Yet China has shown understanding and has not protested. Right?
Think differently, if you were in the position of the Chinese, how would you treat Pakistan?

I don't mean to point fingers. I just want my friends in Pakistan to look at these issues more rationally.

Imagenery enemy. ????? We have three major wars with india since independence and you have the audacity to call it imagenery enemy....... China has her own disputes with India , a small war and multiple border skirmishes . Yet you have the balls to say you are doing a favor to Pakistan by not having good relations with India .. what's quad and why is India in it ? ....if you think America is your imagenery enemy I hope Chinese establishment will keep you million miles away from any policy making ....and Turkey ? What has she done to hurt you other than making couple of statements in favor of uighers ?......go see some Shrink my friend .

 

[Michael]

Imagenery enemy. ????? We have three major wars with india since independence and you have the audacity to call it imagenery enemy....... China has her own disputes with India , a small war and multiple border skirmishes . Yet you have the balls to say you are doing a favor to Pakistan by not having good relations with India .. what's quad and why is India in it ? ....if you think America is your imagenery enemy I hope Chinese establishment will keep you million miles away from any policy making ....and Turkey ? What has she done to hurt you other than making couple of statements in favor of uighers ?......go see some Shrink my friend .

Your bigoted and one-sided statements and strong nationalistic sentiments make me lose interest in discussing with you. In the meantime, this has nothing to do with this thread.

PDF is a public forum and anyone is entitled to post their opinions within the rules. So, please respect each other and discuss rationally. Please do not go seriously off topic.

That's it ! Please end the controversy on this issue!