Chinese 6th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[MH.Yang]

There isn't any major war between two countries of that size like China and India, so it is really not a smart move to be panic and hop on another foreign fighter program again.

You are using the Chinese government's mindset to predict the Indian government.

If it were the Chinese government, it really wouldn't go for procurement, but the Indian government would. Because procurement is an opportunity for Indian politicians to get rich.

 

[MH.Yang]

Do you have evidence to prove your viewpoint? Otherwise, keep quiet

If you are really Chinese, you should follow the Chinese netizen's principle of debate "whoever claims, whoever gives evidence (谁主张谁举证)".

You presented the detailed parameters, you should prove its source instead of asking the skeptics to prove the data wrong.

 

[MH.Yang]

Himalayan mission

Btw, considering the dark color and dorsal intake, do you think a good name for this aircraft would be the “Orca”?

I like the name "Yinglong(应龙)". It is one of the nine ancient divine dragons in Chinese mythology. It is fast, invisible and, together with the Green Dragon, represents justice and bravery.

 

[niubi]

For those who talk about NGAD and how it flew please note the following.

It was openly claimed to the public by US Air Force representatives and iirc also Pentagon/various US state apparatus that they flew tech demonstrator of NGAD. They gave this in the context of creating a Century fighter series style mass iteration approach using computational fluid dynamics aided design processes. What this means is evaluating dozens of design very quickly using modelling only and then choosing some promising ones, given performance criteria, to develop further into what would likely be scaled down tech demonstrators for evaluating flight dynamics only. This means NO development and effort made at all on the final avionics front.

This differs greatly from prototypes and experimental aircraft such as B-21 prototype, YF-22 prototype, X-35 (F-35 prototype), X-32 (competitor design to F-35 from Boeing), YF-23 prototype and X-36.

Please also recall that in the history of US military aviation, only U-2, F-117, SR-71 and B-2 prototypes were hidden from public view for manned aircraft and RQ-170 and RQ-180 were hidden from public view for unmanned and prototypes of X-47A and X-47B were both revealed before service or in these cases, program cancellation. This of course is only within the set of knowns.

If the argument about set of knowns and unknowns is to be made, well the same can be said for Chinese programs. The DF-17 hypersonic glider was not made known until it was in service, probably for some time. We only knew China was test flying HGVs in high volume from US sources between years 2000 and 2019. Beyond that, it was just hints from Chinese high up credible sources saying "Assassins mace is a new generation of missiles focused on A2AD for US carriers". Same can be said about WZ-8 and tonnes of other mysterious and relatively secretive UAVs that are unacknowledged officially, including sharp triangular craft photographed under modified H-6.

As for manned aircraft from China, so far none have had prototypes kept secret from public viewership except J-10 and only to some degree. Before official unveiling of J-10, no prototype was shown and unveiling was after J-10 reached PLAAF service.

So focusing only on manned aircraft since unmanned aircraft and HGV is very often not shown by both sides until well after induction, China has shown prototype flights - J-20, J-35, CAC and SAC's 6th generation fighters and surely H-20 as well when shown probably will be prototype.

China very rarely if ever reveals aircraft that were cancelled or experimental. Even though there have been plenty over the decades. J-9 actually made its way to prototyping in the past. This has been disclosed. Earlier aircraft experimenting with canards were also revealed in recent years despite those being decades old experiments.

US has shown X-32, X-35, YF-22, YF-23, B-21 prototypes LONG before final production version and induction into airforce. NGAD is unlikely to be different. So why is NGAD's supposed flight not shown?

Most likely reason for this is because what they flew was a very preliminary study demonstrator, actually completely empty and probably well scaled down as just some study to evaluate real flight performance of some iterative design work. This is hinted at as being true by US brass claiming that they are exploring digital design processes to evaluate more models at a faster pace.

This digital method is not new to anyone. In fact China evaluated hundreds of HGV designs with slight differences using CFD modelling. This method saves tonnes of time and material, not to mention money.

TLDR. US brass hinted that NGAD flight models are scaled down preliminary study level aircraft. Nowhere near prototype level. NGAD flights were not shown despite B-21, YF-22 and X-35 level important strategic weapons have had prototypes completely revealed LONG before any of them were even close to finished and reaching service. BTW reminder to US and NAFO that B-21 is nowhere near ready either.

Whatever genuinely kept under wraps stuff the US and China have, both sides have cyber and all forms of espionage tapping into each others secrets at a level our public understanding surely has no idea of. Example is that leak which US intelligence briefing mentioned WZ-8 has been in operation for a while and DF-27 HGV has been tested by China many times. That briefing was not meant for the public. If one wants to imagine and dream about uber cool secret aircraft, China also has a plenty, more than enough official diclosure on flight tests, exotic engines and older, disclosed stuff have made their way into public domain for years. What's under wraps is, to use NAFO fanboy language, "lightyears ahead". It's not just US who can do physics and has access to top tier computing.

 

[niubi]

Essentially what NGAD flew in the past is not what USAF wants NGAD to be. A year ago they said they are pausing NGAD. You wouldn't be pausing it if you had prototype level and a desire to acquire next gen fighter with a program dedicated to it. You can pause a tech demonstrator made only to evaluate cost of program and acquisition.

They use the demonstrator to decide that the cost and/or performance is not right for what they're after. They are now reviewing the programs according to US gov. They've known to a pretty good degree how far along China's own 6th gen programs were traveling. Surely more than we did on the internet. It is possible the US intelligence gathering on Chinese programs made them realise they needed to go review and possible do significant redoing of their existing NGAD designs.

Now it seems theyre shifting entire NGAD doctrine to something completely different to what they were working on before. From a single platform aircraft that's part of the wider network to NGAD being a small manned fighter, a tanker, and a heavy CCA (similar to what China's SAC has done) as one package NGAD.

 

[StrategicBear]

J-36 looks set to redefine air combat as we see it.

Pardon my ignorance, but does China develops land-attack cruise missiles which are as stealthy as Storm Shadow too? Or stealthier...

I think those would be a good match to store inside J-36's weapons bays...

 

[Neurosmith]

J-36 looks set to redefine air combat as we see it.

Pardon my ignorance, but does China develops land-attack cruise missiles which are as stealthy as Storm Shadow too? Or stealthier...

I think those would be a good match to store inside J-36's weapons bays...

AKF-98A & GB-6A

 

[Ali_Baba]

They haven't said a word about NGAD since the reveal of J-36 & J-50.

The NGAD programme is a rudderless ship right now, they don't have a definitive plan or firm requirements, and therefore recent comments on changing the programme, redesigns, lowering costs etc.

I really do think the recent Chinese announcements of their 6th Gen programme is to "force" the confused NGAD programme into making a "reactive" decision that may not be what the USA wants, or needs. ie to reinforce the overall confusion in the NGAG programme.

China's 6th Gen programme meets the military needs of China, and is a firm plan with clear goals that they are working towards. The USA programme, less so. War by other, and all means

 

[UKBengali]

The NGAD programme is a rudderless ship right now, they don't have a definitive plan or firm requirements, and therefore recent comments on changing the programme, redesigns, lowering costs etc.

I really do think the recent Chinese announcements of their 6th Gen programme is to "force" the confused NGAD programme into making a "reactive" decision that may not be what the USA wants, or needs. ie to reinforce the overall confusion in the NGAG programme.

China's 6th Gen programme meets the military needs of China, and is a firm plan with clear goals that they are working towards. The USA programme, less so. War by other, and all means

US has literally been leapfrogged now by China as the leader in military aerospace.

It is now reacting to China and not the other way round.

 

[yusheng]

If you are really Chinese, you should follow the Chinese netizen's principle of debate "whoever claims, whoever gives evidence (谁主张谁举证)".

You presented the detailed parameters, you should prove its source instead of asking the skeptics to prove the data wrong.

This is not a place for publishing academic papers; various analyses and speculations are allowed. If you look at this forum as if it's a court case, I think you might be a bit confused about the situation. And among so many speculations and analyses, why are you targeting me specifically? That's quite strange.

I was planning to release some more analysis on the J36 avionics and stealth technology, but the environment here is too poor, so forget it, I'll see about it later.

You have more fun playing by yourselves.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

In my personal view, China's recent advancements are fundamentally challenging the very definition of fighter generations. These newly revealed concepts are neither definitively 6th-generation nor 5th-generation, and they do not neatly fit into any existing category such as fighter, bomber, strike, air superiority, or any other established definition. China has introduced novel concepts and a fundamentally different approach, which is also perplexing for the West. Western defense analysts tend to view Next-Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) as an incremental upon fifth-generation aircraft and did not anticipate something truly revolutionary.


Or perhaps I'm the one who is unable to find and understand the correct information.

 

[UKBengali]

In my personal view, China's recent advancements are fundamentally challenging the very definition of fighter generations. These newly revealed concepts are neither definitively 6th-generation nor 5th-generation, and they do not neatly fit into any existing category such as fighter, bomber, strike, air superiority, or any other established definition. China has introduced novel concepts and a fundamentally different approach, which is also perplexing for the West. Western defense analysts tend to view Next-Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) as an incremental upon fifth-generation aircraft and did not anticipate something truly revolutionary.


Or perhaps I'm the one who is unable to find and understand the correct information.

Whoever comes up with a "generation" first gets to define what it is.

China will define what 6th generation is and everyone else will have to follow their standard.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

Whoever comes up with a "generation" first gets to define what it is.

China will define what 6th generation is and everyone else will have to follow their standard.

Ok, What if US and Chinese NGAD were based on different concept ? Which one is called which generation as both were above 5th Gen?

 

[MH.Yang]

Ok, What if US and Chinese NGAD were based on different concept ? Which one is called which generation as both were above 5th Gen?

No need to worry. Similar to the 055 and the Zumwalt, history will make the right choice.

 

[FHN]

Then please show us a video of NGAD flying on the sky.

Otherwise, this is going to be really bad looking for the US.

To reinstate the production line for the upgrade F-22 raptor will not be enough to comfort their unsettling supporters.

NGAD will need to be larger than an F-22 and have a deeper magazine. The B-21 could supplement by carrying long range AAMs, but NGAD and CCAs will need to carry the load.