Pakistan, the IVC, and a Land of continuous migration and mixing

Contrary to your claim - it is promoted quite actively in education - in museums and so on. However, there is a disconnect where it is claimed it was wiped out entirely (almost an implicit genetic erasure) by Aryans. Next - Islam is portrayed to have come into India as a complete conversion (including genetics) not as implicit through formal education but very explicitly through religious education and “folk tales”.

Part of it has to do with the maginot’s line in Pakistan as the Indus - with the west claiming Afghan heritage outright due to ethnic makeup - and this also comes from the origins of Pakistan in UP/Hydrabadi communities based on their “syed/hashmi/abbasi” culture even though the lineage may not be that tracable.
The Pakistani state, at the time of Zia, probably wanted a clean slate and a simplistic narrative, (fearing ethnic-nationalism) because it didn’t want to dedicate the bandwidth (funding) to people centric state building (bottom up).

Once we get past the current political impasse, IMHO, now is the best time to embrace the heritage and do the work to put Pakistan on the map in its proper context.
 
I'm not trying to preclude or imply anything, just stating the fact that Pakistan does not seem particularly interested. Perhaps you should direct your concerns to your own archaeology and academic departments rather than taking issue with me for stating facts.

On our side of the border, significant investments are being made—museums are being created, studies are being funded, and discoveries are actively linked to the IVC. For instance, artifacts unearthed at Keeladi in Tamil Nadu have prompted some scholars to speculate about larger links to the IVC, showcasing the depth of exploration and connections being pursued in India.

No one is denying that the IVC is also part of Pakistan’s history, but the lack of interest from the Pakistani state and its citizens—whatever the historical reasons may be—is simply a reality.


Good for you, good for India

I'll start a "go fund me" for pitiful Pakistani initiatives, clearly a long way to go, probably best to leave Pak in peace 🙄
 
The Pakistani state, at the time of Zia, probably wanted a clean slate and a simplistic narrative, (fearing ethnic-nationalism) because it didn’t want to dedicate the bandwidth (funding) to people centric state building (bottom up).

Once we get past the current political impasse, IMHO, now is the best time to embrace the heritage and do the work to put Pakistan on the map in its proper context.

Also just the basic fact that there has been a lot of flux and tumult in the country so delving into the ivc seems like a distant priority

It's been on the simmer you can say and will simmer a bit more as people get aware
 
Also just the basic fact that there has been a lot of flux and tumult in the country so delving into the ivc seems like a distant priority

It's been on the simmer you can say and will simmer a bit more as people get aware
But this chaotic, non-strategic, process of not harnessing our resources, be it our heritage or people, to put our country in its rightful place is squandering our potential and letting others take advantage of us.
 
Tbh ancient and very ancient history is generally quite niche anyway, though I agree it adds up

Given Pakistans neighbours, 1.4 billion or so, attach their Psycho sexual wellbeing on Pak istans history narrative their are unique challenges at play that other nations do not have to suffer
We must face our unique challenges with all our unique attributes, even if it seems niche, it’s quite important on the global stage, when we try to promote ourselves and do business in a strategic manner.
 
The Pakistani state, at the time of Zia, probably wanted a clean slate and a simplistic narrative, (fearing ethnic-nationalism) because it didn’t want to dedicate the bandwidth (funding) to people centric state building (bottom up).

Once we get past the current political impasse, IMHO, now is the best time to embrace the heritage and do the work to put Pakistan on the map in its proper context.
Which has been a massive mistake - because that was still the mistake made post 48.

Pakistan was made for muslims of the subcontinent - it was irrelevant to the origin story(despite Iqbal’s folly of mentioning martial races) where you came from - it was literally the concept of Israel for muslims from the subcontinent. Come and be your best self.

Unfortunately - the concept met ethnic realities and xenophobia - fueled by a racist dictator in Ayub Khan who first used racism in Karachi and then against Bengalis.

IVC NEVER mattered.

Nations need 5 things:

- land
- culture
- beliefs
- economic security
- physical security

Other than land - Pakistani leaders both of the state, of religion, of culture - have been unable to provide any of the remaining four consistently to where it’s just land and physical security left now.

Take culture, for example. Pakistan’s cultural identity has never been rooted in the ancient Indus Valley Civilization (IVC), as its historical continuity was disrupted long before the nation’s conception. Instead, the foundation of Pakistani culture was shaped by Jinnah’s vision—his adoption of Urdu as a unifying language was not merely a “minority power move,” but an attempt to construct a shared cultural framework for a diverse population. Figures like Jinnah were intended to serve as ideals, much like Atatürk in Turkey.

Turkey’s success in this regard lies in its deliberate crafting of a unifying narrative. The state celebrates its history and cultural diversity, from the Ottomans to Islam, while promoting shared ideals like those of Kemalism. Despite regional differences in language and traditions, Turkey’s leadership created cohesion by emphasizing shared symbols like the Kemalist cap and the Turkish language. These tools unify Turks, fostering both pride and purpose.

Pakistan’s fragmentation stems from its failure to create a unifying identity that transcends ethnic, religious, and class divides. Instead of celebrating diversity, the state has allowed it to become a source of division. Economic inequality and uneven development fuel mistrust, while education and media fail to promote a collective vision. Institutions meant to protect the public interest often appear biased.

While the ancient Indus Valley Civilization is a point of historical pride, it lacks direct cultural continuity with present-day Pakistan and thus holds limited relevance for modern nation-building. Instead, fostering a shared cultural narrative that embraces the country’s rich diversity is essential. This can be achieved by celebrating the unique traditions, languages, and arts of all ethnic groups, such as Punjabi music, Sindhi embroidery, Balochi carpets, and Pashtun poetry - heck Coke Studio is a thousand more effective and relevant to IVC.

Promoting inclusive cultural festivals and integrating diverse cultural histories into educational curricula can help bridge societal divides. Additionally, leveraging popular media, like television dramas and their soundtracks, which resonate across different demographics, can serve as a unifying force - it does already.

But if the institutions don’t follow through - id the political will is completely opposite or exploitative or if people simply cannot guarantee food on the table then all these narratives fail.

What do I care about dead people 4000 years ago when I cannot pay the electricity bills on time or provide any future for my children?

It’s not dismissive of the IVC but that you are proposing a top tier of maslow’s pyramid in a society where the base is hollow and barely able to stabd
 
Still awaiting this vast and abundant proof btw that u had promised me.
I agree that I didn’t completely follow through on my earlier promise. However, most of the recent posts by Pakistani members seem to reinforce the same point—that historically, the Pakistani state hasn’t made much effort to connect the cultural identity of the country to the local history of the land.

Below is some information I found related to the discussion we’ve been having abt some Pakistanis claiming to be of Arab origin:

1. A 2016 post by Pakistani members on the old forum:

2. A 2017 article in Dawn by a Pakistani journalist:

3. Another article by the same journalist discussing similar themes:

4. A 2021 discussion on genetic claims:

5. A full TV show discussing this topic:
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


6. An article "Some Pakistanis and Indian Muslims claim Arab ancestry, which is often a huge source of contention."
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-asia-are-descended-from-rapists-8375422.html

7. In his research “Reconstructing the ancient history of the Baloch on archaeological evidence,” Rind argues
"People who are now living in this region have come from nowhere [else]; they are the habitants. South Asians have not come from Aryans, Alebbo, Arabs, and Persians; rather they have their own identity. They are the son of the soils."

The fact that this topic is repeatedly discussed—whether in forums, articles, or even TV shows—suggests there is a level of confusion or insecurity around the subject. After all, if there was no ambiguity, why would there be such a persistent discourse about whether Pakistanis are Arabs or not? This ongoing discussion itself highlights the cultural and identity-related dynamics we’ve been talking about.
 
Last edited:
I agree that I didn’t completely follow through on my earlier promise. However, most of the recent posts by Pakistani members seem to reinforce the same point—that historically, the Pakistani state hasn’t made much effort to connect the cultural identity of the country to the local history of the land.

Below is some information I found related to the discussion we’ve been having abt some Pakistanis claiming to be of Arab origin:

1. A 2016 post by Pakistani members on the old forum:

2. A 2017 article in Dawn by a Pakistani journalist:

3. Another article by the same journalist discussing similar themes:

4. A 2021 discussion on genetic claims:

5. A full TV show discussing this topic:
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


6. An article "Some Pakistanis and Indian Muslims claim Arab ancestry, which is often a huge source of contention."
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-asia-are-descended-from-rapists-8375422.html

7. In his research “Reconstructing the ancient history of the Baloch on archaeological evidence,” Rind argues
"People who are now living in this region have come from nowhere [else]; they are the habitants. South Asians have not come from Aryans, Alebbo, Arabs, and Persians; rather they have their own identity. They are the son of the soils."

The fact that this topic is repeatedly discussed—whether in forums, articles, or even TV shows—suggests there is a level of confusion or insecurity around the subject. After all, if there was no ambiguity, why would there be such a persistent discourse about whether Pakistanis are Arabs or not? This ongoing discussion itself highlights the cultural and identity-related dynamics we’

1) Not evidence…personal anecdotes…not so different than what u claimed.
2) opinion piece/anecdotes…no hard data
3) Anothef opinion from the same journalist…no hard data presented
4) Just shows genetic make up…which no south Asian thinks that he is Arab…as I pointed out…some trace patrilineal link to some revered figure who lived hundreds of years back…which obviously isn’t a case for Arab genetic make up…bcuz the majority of ancestors would be indigenous…hence having that one Arab ancestor hardly has any bearing on their current genetic make up…
…still not evidence of the claim that Pakistanis claiming to be Arabs is a widespread phenomenon.
5) Listened to the interview…and again…ppl talking just in the same misguided manner as on this forum…with anecdotal or at best a few cases of such claims.
6) Already lists that “some” Pakistani and Indian Muslims claiming Arab ancestry. And again to add to it…tracing lineage to a revered Islamic figure(which would by default have to be Arab) is different than claiming u have Arab DNA. Just like how all humans can trace back to early humans out of Africa…but it doesn’t make all modern day humans, African. by their genetic make up.
7) Where the ppl came from was never in question. Majority of Pakistanis have been living in Pakistan generation after generation after generation. Mass migrations usually only occurred due to war(ppl being driven out or persecuted), natural disaster, or lack of resources(food, water, etc). Traveling long distances…and that too in ease…is a relatively recent phenomenon.

As for ur last paragraph…it’s just a hopeless attempt. Nothing better than “oh look all these ppl are talking about it so there must be some truth to it”…
…if only that’s how things worked…flat earthers would rejoice…that just bcuz idiots talk about earth being flat…and others argue against it with evidence…therefore according to ur reasoning…the fact that it is being mentioned on some forums and talked about in some circles…with a few articles here and there…it must be “true”.

When it comes to evidence…u r gonna need to try better than that sorry attempt above. Like even a self reported survey of Pakistanis…where they claim to be Arabs(even at 50%) would do…let alone a whole nation trying to be Arab as u guys make it out to be…

As for Pakistan’s schools teaching about Pakistan’s history…I have studied it myself. I was born and raised in Pakistan. There was no skipping of IVC…nor was it replaced with anything about Pakistanis being Arabs. The scant amount of detail…is due to the fact…that even scholars today have a lot missing about IVC…
…the language was never deciphered. Lack of sufficient amount of writing left behind(other than some seals), no clear consensus of what caused its demise, or how it arose, hard to draw any connections from other civilizations’ writings who traded with IVC(although there are a few guesses by some scholars).
With that…what detailed study would u expect at a high school level? Add to that…that this is Pakistan’s school system…not exactly known to be world class.
Where is this denial or disowning of IVC heritage?
So far u haven’t shown it at the state level(any official statement by the government of Pakistan), u haven’t shown it at the school level, nor have u shown it at the ppl level(other than a few anecdotal accounts…which u can find for anything u wanna argue no matter how ridiculous).
 
Last edited:
1) Not evidence…personal anecdotes…not so different than what u claimed.
2) opinion piece/anecdotes…no hard data
3) Anothef opinion from the same journalist…no hard data presented
4) Just shows genetic make up…which no south Asian thinks that he is Arab…as I pointed out…some trace patrilineal link to some revered figure who lived hundreds of years back…which obviously isn’t a case for Arab genetic make up…bcuz the majority of ancestors would be indigenous…hence having that one Arab ancestor hardly has any bearing on their current genetic make up…
…still not evidence of the claim that Pakistanis claiming to be Arabs is a widespread phenomenon.
5) Listened to the interview…and again…ppl talking just in the same misguided manner as on this forum…with anecdotal or at best a few cases of such claims.
6) Already lists that “some” Pakistani and Indian Muslims claiming Arab ancestry. And again to add to it…tracing lineage to a revered Islamic figure(which would by default have to be Arab) is different than claiming u have Arab DNA. Just like how all humans can trace back to early humans out of Africa…but it doesn’t make all modern day humans, African. by their genetic make up.
7) Where the ppl came from was never in question. Majority of Pakistanis have been living in Pakistan generation after generation after generation. Mass migrations usually only occurred due to war(ppl being driven out or persecuted), natural disaster, or lack of resources(food, water, etc). Traveling long distances…and that too in ease…is a relatively recent phenomenon.

As for ur last paragraph…it’s just a hopeless attempt. Nothing better than “oh look all these ppl are talking about it so there must be some truth to it”…
…if only that’s how things worked…flat earthers would rejoice…that just bcuz idiots talk about earth being flat…and others argue against it with evidence…therefore according to ur reasoning…the fact that it is being mentioned on some forums and talked about in some circles…with a few articles here and there…it must be “true”.

When it comes to evidence…u r gonna need to try better than that sorry attempt above. Like even a self reported survey of Pakistanis…where they claim to be Arabs(even at 50%) would do…let alone a whole nation trying to be Arab as u guys make it out to be…

As for Pakistan’s schools teaching about Pakistan’s history…I have studied it myself. I was born and raised in Pakistan. There was no skipping of IVC…nor was it replaced with anything about Pakistanis being Arabs. The scant amount of detail…is due to the fact…that even scholars today have a lot missing about IVC…
…the language was never deciphered. Lack of sufficient amount of writing left behind(other than some seals), no clear consensus of what caused its demise, or how it arose, hard to draw any connections from other civilizations’ writings who traded with IVC(although there are a few guesses by some scholars).
With that…what detailed study would u expect at a high school level? Add to that…that this is Pakistan’s school system…not exactly known to be world class.
Where is this denial or disowning of IVC heritage?
So far u haven’t shown it at the state level(any official statement by the government of Pakistan), u haven’t shown it at the school level, nor have u shown it at the ppl level(other than a few anecdotal accounts…which u can find for anything u wanna argue no matter how ridiculous).
Your demand for a peer-reviewed paper level proof to prove a common cultural discourse is ridiculous. Discourse isn’t measured in labs; it’s in social behavior, identity, and narratives. If you walked the streets of Pakistan and casually asked people, especially Syeds or Qureshis, you’d hear plenty of claims about Arab or Middle Eastern origins.

These claims aren’t about DNA; they’re about symbolic or religious connections, like tracing lineage to the Prophet. It’s not about genetic accuracy but about cultural identity—and that doesn’t need scientific proof to exist.

The flat-earther comparison doesn’t work here. Observing a social phenomenon, like Arab ancestry claims, isn’t the same as proving a debunked idea. It’s about seeing patterns in identity, which show up in anecdotes, not journals.

As for the IVC, no one denies its importance, but Pakistan’s historical narrative does tend to prioritize Islamic identity over pre-Islamic history. This isn’t unique—many countries frame history around ideology. Saying the IVC isn’t “denied” doesn’t mean it’s highlighted.

Bottom line: claiming there’s no talk of Arab ancestry or downplaying pre-Islamic heritage is ignoring obvious cultural dynamics. It’s there, whether you like it or not.

Stop being silly now
 
Take culture, for example. Pakistan’s cultural identity has never been rooted in the ancient Indus Valley Civilization (IVC), as its historical continuity was disrupted long before the nation’s conception. I

This is a non sequitur and I am not sure that you can validly weave all these laments into one, in fact you can't really

The ivc is just a part of the history of the land, that's it, why does it need to lead to current day culture , that's why it's history

If anything remains it does, if it doesn't then also fine


Why does anyone need to justify interest in history based on wider economic situation, wtf😂
 
Well, as a South Indian, we’re hardly bothered by all this, but I can’t help finding it hilarious on this forum when one group keeps proudly claiming their ancestors were the invaders. Like, congrats on the “we got conquered” or “we did the conquering” narrative. Meanwhile, the rest of us are just here, watching the show and enjoying the friendly back-and-forth.

You must live in a very sheltered part of India.

The difference between you and me is italian to sudanese. There is no doubt at all that this region had its own distinct history and probably a lot more developed with all the constant migrations.
 
Which has been a massive mistake - because that was still the mistake made post 48.

Pakistan was made for muslims of the subcontinent - it was irrelevant to the origin story(despite Iqbal’s folly of mentioning martial races) where you came from - it was literally the concept of Israel for muslims from the subcontinent. Come and be your best self.

Unfortunately - the concept met ethnic realities and xenophobia - fueled by a racist dictator in Ayub Khan who first used racism in Karachi and then against Bengalis.

IVC NEVER mattered.

Nations need 5 things:

- land
- culture
- beliefs
- economic security
- physical security

Other than land - Pakistani leaders both of the state, of religion, of culture - have been unable to provide any of the remaining four consistently to where it’s just land and physical security left now.

Take culture, for example. Pakistan’s cultural identity has never been rooted in the ancient Indus Valley Civilization (IVC), as its historical continuity was disrupted long before the nation’s conception. Instead, the foundation of Pakistani culture was shaped by Jinnah’s vision—his adoption of Urdu as a unifying language was not merely a “minority power move,” but an attempt to construct a shared cultural framework for a diverse population. Figures like Jinnah were intended to serve as ideals, much like Atatürk in Turkey.

Turkey’s success in this regard lies in its deliberate crafting of a unifying narrative. The state celebrates its history and cultural diversity, from the Ottomans to Islam, while promoting shared ideals like those of Kemalism. Despite regional differences in language and traditions, Turkey’s leadership created cohesion by emphasizing shared symbols like the Kemalist cap and the Turkish language. These tools unify Turks, fostering both pride and purpose.

Pakistan’s fragmentation stems from its failure to create a unifying identity that transcends ethnic, religious, and class divides. Instead of celebrating diversity, the state has allowed it to become a source of division. Economic inequality and uneven development fuel mistrust, while education and media fail to promote a collective vision. Institutions meant to protect the public interest often appear biased.

While the ancient Indus Valley Civilization is a point of historical pride, it lacks direct cultural continuity with present-day Pakistan and thus holds limited relevance for modern nation-building. Instead, fostering a shared cultural narrative that embraces the country’s rich diversity is essential. This can be achieved by celebrating the unique traditions, languages, and arts of all ethnic groups, such as Punjabi music, Sindhi embroidery, Balochi carpets, and Pashtun poetry - heck Coke Studio is a thousand more effective and relevant to IVC.

Promoting inclusive cultural festivals and integrating diverse cultural histories into educational curricula can help bridge societal divides. Additionally, leveraging popular media, like television dramas and their soundtracks, which resonate across different demographics, can serve as a unifying force - it does already.

But if the institutions don’t follow through - id the political will is completely opposite or exploitative or if people simply cannot guarantee food on the table then all these narratives fail.

What do I care about dead people 4000 years ago when I cannot pay the electricity bills on time or provide any future for my children?

It’s not dismissive of the IVC but that you are proposing a top tier of maslow’s pyramid in a society where the base is hollow and barely able to stabd
History, origin etc should be a pursuit of curiosity... Unfortunately, I have seen it become a lot like a pursuit of identity or pride. That itself makes the pursuit useless and tainted. When people need a certain finding beforehand, its not even worth the effort of investigation.
 
As for the IVC, no one denies its importance, but Pakistan’s historical narrative does tend to prioritize Islamic identity over pre-Islamic history. This isn’t unique—many countries frame history around ideology. Saying the IVC isn’t “denied” doesn’t mean it’s highlighted


You keep self projecting Hindu insecurity about its history as if it's universal, other nations are not so insecure

you have to keep your national narrative from a specific era just due to efficiency and time constraints and.... relevance

Ivc in any case was discovered around 1920, why or how would Pakistan suddenly weave some grand narrative from early discovery
 
Your demand for a peer-reviewed paper level proof to prove a common cultural discourse is ridiculous. Discourse isn’t measured in labs; it’s in social behavior, identity, and narratives. If you walked the streets of Pakistan and casually asked people, especially Syeds or Qureshis, you’d hear plenty of claims about Arab or Middle Eastern origins.

These claims aren’t about DNA; they’re about symbolic or religious connections, like tracing lineage to the Prophet. It’s not about genetic accuracy but about cultural identity—and that doesn’t need scientific proof to exist.

The flat-earther comparison doesn’t work here. Observing a social phenomenon, like Arab ancestry claims, isn’t the same as proving a debunked idea. It’s about seeing patterns in identity, which show up in anecdotes, not journals.

As for the IVC, no one denies its importance, but Pakistan’s historical narrative does tend to prioritize Islamic identity over pre-Islamic history. This isn’t unique—many countries frame history around ideology. Saying the IVC isn’t “denied” doesn’t mean it’s highlighted.

Bottom line: claiming there’s no talk of Arab ancestry or downplaying pre-Islamic heritage is ignoring obvious cultural dynamics. It’s there, whether you like it or not.

Stop being silly now
U r the one who stated the proof is abundant and everywhere…
…now u have nothing to show for it other than a handful of anecdotes? As for Syeds and Qureshis…do u know how minuscule their population would be as a percentage for a country the size of Pakistan(in terms of population)? It would be entirely negligible…
…there goes ur whole claim of a nation looking to ditch its IVC heritage and claiming to be Arab.

As for the emphasis on “Islamic identity”…u don’t know the difference between religious and cultural identity. This is why u started spouting this nonsense in the first place. One can have a religious identity along with their cultural identity. A Bangladeshi Muslim can be Bangladeshi(culturally) and a Muslim(religiously), same goes for a Malaysian Muslim, Turk Muslim, Ethiopian Muslim, etc. Which of these different aspects of their identity ppl choose to signify in their life…varies from person to person, the type of setting, and probably their life experiences. This is something that might be hard for u to grasp since Hinduism remained mainly limited to India(and to a lesser extent Nepal) in the modern day(other than those who immigrated). Islam on the other hand has reached far and wide…different ppl of different cultures…retain their cultural identity and traditions…and yet also have an Islamic identity.

To conclude…Pakistan never disowned its IVC identity…not at any level(state level, state curriculum level, nor at the level of ppl as a whole). It’s just what u guys have cooked up in ur echo chambers based on a few anecdotal accounts…all in a coping attempt when it’s brought up that India tries to co opt IVC identity. Ur claim remains just that…a claim.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Posts

Back
Top