Pakistan, the IVC, and a Land of continuous migration and mixing

U r the one who stated the proof is abundant and everywhere…
…now u have nothing to show for it other than a handful of anecdotes? As for Syeds and Qureshis…do u know how minuscule their population would be as a percentage for a country the size of Pakistan(in terms of population)? It would be entirely negligible…
…there goes ur whole claim of a nation looking to ditch its IVC heritage and claiming to be Arab.

As for the emphasis on “Islamic identity”…u don’t know the difference between religious and cultural identity. This is why u started spouting this nonsense in the first place. One can have a religious identity along with their cultural identity. A Bangladeshi Muslim can be Bangladeshi(culturally) and a Muslim(religiously), same goes for a Malaysian Muslim, Turk Muslim, Ethiopian Muslim, etc. Which of these different aspects of their identity ppl choose to signify in their life…varies from person to person, the type of setting, and probably their life experiences. This is something that might be hard for u to grasp since Hinduism remained mainly limited to India(and to a lesser extent Nepal) in the modern day(other than those who immigrated). Islam on the other hand has reached far and wide…different ppl of different cultures…retain their cultural identity and traditions…and yet also have an Islamic identity.

To conclude…Pakistan never disowned its IVC identity…not at any level(state level, state curriculum level, nor at the level of ppl as a whole). It’s just what u guys have cooked up in ur echo chambers based on a few anecdotal accounts…all in a coping attempt when it’s brought up that India tries to co opt IVC identity. Ur claim remains just that…a claim.
Maybe it’s hard for me to grasp because, on my side of the world, religion, geography, and culture are deeply connected. But I guess when your identity is built around a foreign religion with no roots in your land, it does make things as messy as you described.
 
You keep self projecting Hindu insecurity about its history as if it's universal, other nations are not so insecure

you have to keep your national narrative from a specific era just due to efficiency and time constraints and.... relevance

Ivc in any case was discovered around 1920, why or how would Pakistan suddenly weave some grand narrative from early discovery
Oh, the irony of calling others insecure while your entire national identity is built on rejecting your own land's history to claim foreign roots. As for weaving a 'grand narrative,' maybe it's hard when you’ve spent decades sidelining your pre-Islamic past. But sure, keep lecturing about 'relevance'—it’s amusing, if nothing else.
 
You must live in a very sheltered part of India.

The difference between you and me is italian to sudanese. There is no doubt at all that this region had its own distinct history and probably a lot more developed with all the constant migrations.
Sheltered? Not quite. In South India, we weren’t overrun by invaders every other century. Outside influences came through trade and cultural exchange—on our terms, not through force. Over millennia, we’ve successfully preserved our identity. So perhaps we don’t fully understand the complexity of identity struggles faced by societies shaped by so much historical chaos.
 
Pakistan sure was the weakest link of Indian subcontinent

That's a weird way to think about the past, since the idea of 'Indian subcontinent' in our collective psyche itself is new.

I'm pretty sure my ancestor 2000 years ago did not think 'Pakistan is the weakest link in our subcontinent'.

Stop projecting post-colonial thought into the past.
 
Maybe it’s hard for me to grasp because, on my side of the world, religion, geography, and culture are deeply connected. But I guess when your identity is built around a foreign religion with no roots in your land, it does make things as messy as you described.
Rich coming from a nation whose identity is built around a foreign identity(Indus…literally where the terms Hindu, Hinduism, India come from).

Rest assured…it’s only u who is confused about all this…we Pakistanis are perfectly fine with the many aspects of our identity. Just like how Greeks are perfectly fine being Christians and not having their ancient religion, same goes for Italians, Iranians, etc.
 
LOL!

Come back when Pakistani will find it easy to swallow that once this diety called Pashupati was worshiped in these land by the people of these lands who built among the first planned cities with drainage systems that kind of "worked" thousands years after the cities themselves were ruined.

View attachment 95982


Nowhere is it written this is Pashupati.

If you inherited Indus culture, why can't you read Indus script??

Isn't Sanskrit the oldest language? Why can't you read Indus Sanskrit??
 
Watch the video, Shiva/Rudram was addressed; adopting a local diety or iconography over an indo-European diety.

The video also says the idea of Shiva was adopted in Eastern North India (East UP/Bihar/WB), not in the Indus region, and that there is no evidence the seal has anything to do with Shiva.
 
As for the IVC, no one denies its importance, but Pakistan’s historical narrative does tend to prioritize Islamic identity over pre-Islamic history. This isn’t unique—many countries frame history around ideology. Saying the IVC isn’t “denied” doesn’t mean it’s highlighted.

What exactly does "prioritizing" an identity entail?

How do you prioritize a culture that does not exist anymore?

Neither Pakistan nor India has any cultural continuity with IVC - you can't even read their script. Also it would be impractical to follow the lifestyle of 5000-7000 year old farming society.

Egyptians don't live like ancient Egyptians. Greeks don't live like Mycenians. They can still claim the ancient civilization that existed on their land, but Pakistanis can't?
--

Besides, who should Pakistan prioritize, the invaders (Indo-Aryans) or the victims (IVC)? Genetic studies show they descend from both.
 
Which has been a massive mistake - because that was still the mistake made post 48.

Pakistan was made for muslims of the subcontinent - it was irrelevant to the origin story(despite Iqbal’s folly of mentioning martial races) where you came from - it was literally the concept of Israel for muslims from the subcontinent. Come and be your best self.

Unfortunately - the concept met ethnic realities and xenophobia - fueled by a racist dictator in Ayub Khan who first used racism in Karachi and then against Bengalis.

IVC NEVER mattered.

Nations need 5 things:

- land
- culture
- beliefs
- economic security
- physical security

Other than land - Pakistani leaders both of the state, of religion, of culture - have been unable to provide any of the remaining four consistently to where it’s just land and physical security left now.

Take culture, for example. Pakistan’s cultural identity has never been rooted in the ancient Indus Valley Civilization (IVC), as its historical continuity was disrupted long before the nation’s conception. Instead, the foundation of Pakistani culture was shaped by Jinnah’s vision—his adoption of Urdu as a unifying language was not merely a “minority power move,” but an attempt to construct a shared cultural framework for a diverse population. Figures like Jinnah were intended to serve as ideals, much like Atatürk in Turkey.

Turkey’s success in this regard lies in its deliberate crafting of a unifying narrative. The state celebrates its history and cultural diversity, from the Ottomans to Islam, while promoting shared ideals like those of Kemalism. Despite regional differences in language and traditions, Turkey’s leadership created cohesion by emphasizing shared symbols like the Kemalist cap and the Turkish language. These tools unify Turks, fostering both pride and purpose.

Pakistan’s fragmentation stems from its failure to create a unifying identity that transcends ethnic, religious, and class divides. Instead of celebrating diversity, the state has allowed it to become a source of division. Economic inequality and uneven development fuel mistrust, while education and media fail to promote a collective vision. Institutions meant to protect the public interest often appear biased.

While the ancient Indus Valley Civilization is a point of historical pride, it lacks direct cultural continuity with present-day Pakistan and thus holds limited relevance for modern nation-building. Instead, fostering a shared cultural narrative that embraces the country’s rich diversity is essential. This can be achieved by celebrating the unique traditions, languages, and arts of all ethnic groups, such as Punjabi music, Sindhi embroidery, Balochi carpets, and Pashtun poetry - heck Coke Studio is a thousand more effective and relevant to IVC.

Promoting inclusive cultural festivals and integrating diverse cultural histories into educational curricula can help bridge societal divides. Additionally, leveraging popular media, like television dramas and their soundtracks, which resonate across different demographics, can serve as a unifying force - it does already.

But if the institutions don’t follow through - id the political will is completely opposite or exploitative or if people simply cannot guarantee food on the table then all these narratives fail.

What do I care about dead people 4000 years ago when I cannot pay the electricity bills on time or provide any future for my children?

It’s not dismissive of the IVC but that you are proposing a top tier of maslow’s pyramid in a society where the base is hollow and barely able to stabd

Truly an excellent post, @Joe Shearer

This keeps coming up on my end too as a persistent realisation, in that desis overall (when they reach some relative privilege position away from a more basic survival) have underlying habit to add whatever to their plate without eating the basic things on it first.

The fundament of the issues at hand for this phenomenon/psyche may change contextually and circumstantially somewhat and sometimes they are the exact same too. It all boils down to what and where enough people have invested well to prioritise more cleanly.

This explains a lot of the obsessions, delusions and overall disturbia I see in this forum from particular members in their various degrees...they are products of it and seemingly willfully ignore their persistent inconsistency or dont realise it at all.

Bringing up Turkiye is exactly what I was going to do when I first read @vasanthm earlier reply....and you did it for me. With Ataturk they prioritised some very notable useful things and it caught on to the degree that sustains it today.
 
Maybe it’s hard for me to grasp because, on my side of the world, religion, geography, and culture are deeply connected.

Deeply connected is a nice way of saying stunted.

You are describing one of the amazing things about Islam. While Hinduism is limited to India - Islam spans several racial, genetic, geographic, cultural boundaries.
 
What exactly does "prioritizing" an identity entail?

How do you prioritize a culture that does not exist anymore?

Neither Pakistan nor India has any cultural continuity with IVC - you can't even read their script. Also it would be impractical to follow the lifestyle of 5000-7000 year old farming society.

Egyptians don't live like ancient Egyptians. Greeks don't live like Mycenians. They can still claim the ancient civilization that existed on their land, but Pakistanis can't?
--

Besides, who should Pakistan prioritize, the invaders (Indo-Aryans) or the victims (IVC)? Genetic studies show they descend from both.
In short, what Turkey does with it's past is beautiful and meaningful I think
 
The video also says the idea of Shiva was adopted in Eastern North India (East UP/Bihar/WB), not in the Indus region, and that there is no evidence the seal has anything to do with Shiva.
Seal was a local IVC symbol and if it was interpreted or adopted after the fact as Hindu iconography. that is their choice. This is not unlike how the crescent moon was adopted by Muslims, but was a pre-Islamic symbol.
 
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Deeply connected is a nice way of saying stunted.

You are describing one of the amazing things about Islam. While Hinduism is limited to India - Islam spans several racial, genetic, geographic, cultural boundaries.
Having so many different cultures and races follow one religion feels odd to me. For me, religion needs to be deeply tied to the culture and history of my own people. Sharing it across such vast differences would inevitably dilute many of its components. You either have to lose some of the unique characteristics tied to your own people or adopt foreign concepts that have no historical connection to you—but I guess people are comfortable with what they’re used to and I wouldn't be comfortable in my skin if I had to adopt to such a life.
 
If anyone can decode the script, there is a million dollar waiting to be taken:
The prize is funded by a south Indian state.

You might wonder why a southern state is so interested in IVC
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