PAF F-16 | Discussions

[FuturePAF]

I really dont see PAF spending any more on new build F16s from the USA. Even with CSF repayments sanctioned funds given the focus on the J10CE, JF17C and the new integrated strategy that forms part of the new strategy. If the CSF replayments(for services rendered and payment for wear and tear ) are ever freed up, there are other things that Pakistan could look at procuring, things like radars, etc..

CSF funds, if ever made available should not be spent to procure anything that has to wait. The AH-1Z, UH-1Y, and excess defense articles RG33L MRAPs make sense IMHO, to allow the PA to defend internal and border LOCs. These items will also have less push back, and be a relativistic ask, especially if the US wants to see Pakistan from a counter-terror angle. Getting into a training arrangement with the US Navy and Marines, operators of aforementioned helicopters and the US Army is a good way to keep abreast of developments in modern warfare.

At best the PAF should seek the Turkish upgrade of the F-16 so it can fire the GoKhan when it becomes available. Via Turkey, Pakistan can maintain training schedules with a NATO Air Force.

 

[Quwa]

Get approvals to buy the RAF C-130J-30s if possible.

 

[Yasser76]

Get approvals to buy the RAF C-130J-30s if possible.

Too late, think Turks have moved quickly on these

 

[Ak01]

Too late, think Turks have moved quickly on these

affirm

 

[Cookie Monster]

Would Pakistan proceed with the upgrades? Have you been seeking them?

Pakistan wanted them for a long time…bcuz a bulk of the strength of PAF has been reliant on F16s…
With the pilot training, familiarity, developed tactics, infrastructure, quantity of spares and munitions, etc…it of course made sense to stick with F16s and upgrade it to keep it up with the times.

So for a long time Pakistan was trying to pursue F16 block 70s…but of course due to the economic conditions…it was hard to front all cash. So instead Pakistan wanted to use the aid it was getting to support US forces in Afghanistan…in the form to subsidize this transaction…
…US at the time was trying to woo India…proposing F21…and just in general trying to please India(to counter China). So Pakistan got sidelined. Eventually Pakistan went with J10s instead…and Lockheed Martin’s gamble of trying to pitch F21 to India got shot down.

IMO Pakistan might still go for F16 block 70/72(just bcuz PAF loves it)…maybe in limited numbers if it’s subsidized. However I doubt Trump would go for that(he didn’t last time). However the actual usefulness of that upgrade is debatable…PAF is better off buying more J10s or more J35s at this point.

 

[Quwa]

Too late, think Turks have moved quickly on these

You're right. In any case, same idea: buy the hardware that's already available, such as mothballed AH-1Zs (both PAA plus ex-USMC) and UH-1Ys, stored MRAPs, and get permits for upgrading F-16s and buying second-hand Hercules.

The U.S. is moving towards transactional ties with everyone, so Pakistan should keep a 2-year window with every acquisition plan involving America.

However, if we want to stretch things, then secure permits for any ITAR input involved in 3rd party arms, such as TAI or PZL-manufactured Black Hawks, or Leonardo AW249 and AW149, and so on. Whether we get those or not is a different story, but we should ensure we have access to the inputs if necessary.

 

[Yasser76]

You're right. In any case, same idea: buy the hardware that's already available, such as mothballed AH-1Zs (both PAA plus ex-USMC) and UH-1Ys, stored MRAPs, and get permits for upgrading F-16s and buying second-hand Hercules.

The U.S. is moving towards transactional ties with everyone, so Pakistan should keep a 2-year window with every acquisition plan involving America.

However, if we want to stretch things, then secure permits for any ITAR input involved in 3rd party arms, such as TAI or PZL-manufactured Black Hawks, or Leonardo AW249 and AW149, and so on. Whether we get those or not is a different story, but we should ensure we have access to the inputs if necessary.

You hit the nail on the head, even on the read out of the Trump-Modi call it blantently called for India to buy more US Defence equipment. Approach to Pak will be the same, and it will have to be in billions (above $3 Billion plus I would say) to get Man Baby's attention and give him a "win".

I would say

18 new Vs
Upgrade the current 18 Block 52s to V
Massive weapons and spares package

That would give Man Baby his win enable us to retire all the A/B MLUs in a few years and keep two modern F-16 Sqds and not go over say $3-$ Billion

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

Too late, think Turks have moved quickly on these

US Marines acquired one as well to become the new Fat Albert.

 

[Quwa]

You hit the nail on the head, even on the read out of the Trump-Modi call it blantently called for India to buy more US Defence equipment. Approach to Pak will be the same, and it will have to be in billions (above $3 Billion plus I would say) to get Man Baby's attention and give him a "win".

I would say

18 new Vs
Upgrade the current 18 Block 52s to V
Massive weapons and spares package

That would give Man Baby his win enable us to retire all the A/B MLUs in a few years and keep two modern F-16 Sqds and not go over say $3-$ Billion

IMO I'd prioritize the surplus AH-1Z, UH-1Y, and, heck, UH-60 or S-70s. There's an opportunity here to rapidly revitalize the PAA rotary fleet.

 

[Ali_Baba]

IMO I'd prioritize the surplus AH-1Z, UH-1Y, and, heck, UH-60 or S-70s. There's an opportunity here to rapidly revitalize the PAA rotary fleet.

I wouldnt touch the AH-1Z purely because to build a proper fleet or 40-50 units, you would have to place more orders and that puts you back into the problem you are trying to avoid in the first place, ie time to delivery and sanctions. There are only 12 units that were made for Pakistan.

 

[Quwa]

I wouldnt touch the AH-1Z purely because to build a proper fleet or 40-50 units, you would have to place more orders and that puts you back into the problem you are trying to avoid in the first place, ie time to delivery and sanctions. There are only 12 units that were made for Pakistan.

I'd go for the 12 plus some from ex-USMC stocks (up to 27 AH-1Zs were put into storage alongside 26 UH-1Ys). I think Pakistan can get the fleet up to 18~24 units within the first half of Trump's presidency.

However, I wouldn't look at the AH-1Z in isolation. The PAA should also pursue some ex-USMC UH-1Ys. The AH-1Z and UH-1Y have a very high degree of commonality (85%+), so it'd be like one platform, almost.

Between the 2 types you can have 40 helicopters, which is solid, and can support the entirety of the PAA's air assault needs, tying into the LCB and SSG operations.

Returning to the F-16s. Besides securing US permits to upgrade our 18 via Turkiye (or at least carrying out the LM V-upgrade at PAC), I'd try pursuing some stored Block-25/32s, if available.

If there are 18~30 such units around, the PAF could get LM's SLEP (6,000 hours) and the F-16V upgrade. It'd field a total of 2-3 F-16V squadrons.

 

[Ak01]

Pakistan wanted them for a long time…bcuz a bulk of the strength of PAF has been reliant on F16s…
With the pilot training, familiarity, developed tactics, infrastructure, quantity of spares and munitions, etc…it of course made sense to stick with F16s and upgrade it to keep it up with the times.

So for a long time Pakistan was trying to pursue F16 block 70s…but of course due to the economic conditions…it was hard to front all cash. So instead Pakistan wanted to use the aid it was getting to support US forces in Afghanistan…in the form to subsidize this transaction…
…US at the time was trying to woo India…proposing F21…and just in general trying to please India(to counter China). So Pakistan got sidelined. Eventually Pakistan went with J10s instead…and Lockheed Martin’s gamble of trying to pitch F21 to India got shot down.

IMO Pakistan might still go for F16 block 70/72(just bcuz PAF loves it)…maybe in limited numbers if it’s subsidized. However I doubt Trump would go for that(he didn’t last time). However the actual usefulness of that upgrade is debatable…PAF is better off buying more J10s or more J35s at this point.

just a reminder paf got tps77mrr under trump

 

[Cookie Monster]

just a reminder paf got tps77mrr under trump

There were multiple news sources stating the refusal of US to subsidize F16s…
…Trump did allow to purchase at full price(IIRC)…which as I mentioned in my post would have been too expensive.

My guess is that Trump would probably be open to a purchase again at full price…I doubt the PAF would have funds for it(considering all the other stuff that is being pursued).

 

[Ak01]

There were multiple news sources stating the refusal of US to subsidize F16s…
…Trump did allow to purchase at full price(IIRC)…which as I mentioned in my post would have been too expensive.

My guess is that Trump would probably be open to a purchase again at full price…I doubt the PAF would have funds for it(considering all the other stuff that is being pursued).

Tbh, in terms of new build aircraft, yes, the PAF probably does not have the funds. However, buying V Kits at full cost ($25m?) plus a used airframe, at probably the same cost, brings you a capability at a cost less than a J10(which i suspect are subsidised) and also without all the added costs of infrastructure. Those F-16s will also likely outlive the J-10s we buy lol in terms of airframe life

 

[Ak01]

Richard Grenell 'may have been misled' into supporting Imran Khan, says Trump's confidant

Delegation led by Gentry Beach in Islamabad on two-day visit.A lobby in US spends $2 to $3m per month “related to Imran Khan”.“Grenell is one of the finest Americans that I have ever met. LONDON/ISLAMABAD: Texas hedge...

www.geo.tv

depending on how much influence this fella could have on trump, it seems like there's some real shift in their words.