AMCA News and Discussion

[Deino]

The Air Shows happened!

I know this is going to be another comment that lots of fan boys will hate me for, but it's exactly what drives me crazy so often with Russians and Indians and, conversely, what fascinates me about China:

India and Russia promise the world, praise this and that, performance parameters, time schedules, etc. ... everything is great and then either nothing happens or there are delays for which, of course, someone else is to blame.

China, on the other hand - and the Zhuhai Airshow 2024 has just proven this again - announces almost nothing, NOTHING is touted or announced or claimed ... you have to rely on a few spotter photos and rumours and then suddenly almost 20 series J-15Ts appear, the Z-20J is in operation service, the J-15D is flying, etc. All without much fanfare.

They do not claim and boast, they do their homework!

 

[Joe Shearer]

India and Russia promise the world, praise this and that, performance parameters, time schedules, etc. ... everything is great and then either nothing happens or there are delays for which, of course, someone else is to blame.

China, on the other hand - and the Zhuhai Airshow 2024 has just proven this again - announces almost nothing, NOTHING is touted or announced or claimed ... you have to rely on a few spotter photos and rumours and then suddenly almost 20 series J-15Ts appear, the Z-20J is in operation service, the J-15D is flying, etc. All without much fanfare.

They do not claim and boast, they do their homework!

I've been ITCHING to make this exact same comment for some months now, never got around to it. The announcement mania of Indian sources is abominable; they can't seem to shut up and work quietly, and seem to have a compulsion to blabber something that has modest chances of success.

I know nothing about Russia, so cannot comment.

 

[MirageBlue]

Ok, thanks. So when the first prototype is to be rolled out based on latest official plan/ target ?

First flight as per the AMCA Project Director is expected at the end of 2028. So that's 3.5 years from now.

So prototype roll-out will be most likely in the first or second quarter of 2028.

 

[AjayGhatak]

I know this is going to be another comment that lots of fan boys will hate me for, but it's exactly what drives me crazy so often with Russians and Indians and, conversely, what fascinates me about China:

India and Russia promise the world, praise this and that, performance parameters, time schedules, etc. ... everything is great and then either nothing happens or there are delays for which, of course, someone else is to blame.

China, on the other hand - and the Zhuhai Airshow 2024 has just proven this again - announces almost nothing, NOTHING is touted or announced or claimed ... you have to rely on a few spotter photos and rumours and then suddenly almost 20 series J-15Ts appear, the Z-20J is in operation service, the J-15D is flying, etc. All without much fanfare.

They do not claim and boast, they do their homework!

Russia since dissolution of Soviet union has been in dire need of money for its military industrial complex. They have no other option but to boast their goods because they have to sell them. Its a part of their playbook.

India on the other hand has been a democracy and Indian MIC have been state owned --unlike west-- for most of time. So they have to serve the politicians too. Making promises to align with political goals of the politicians is something they can not avoid. Hence all the weird kind of timelines and announcements. There are upcoming private companies in India who are focusing on exports of their wares. They seldom announce beforehand. Tonbo imaging comes to the mind -- a very small outfit making some decent optics / EO sensors.

In case of China, their behaviour is similar to old soviets. They hide all their progress or lack there of. In India even failures are announced. China seldom tells about failures or even successes. They just show things when then need to. Not too different than soviets who had a thing for secrecy too.

 

[AjayGhatak]

Talking about something that is not even flying is like counting chicken before they hatch. India does it. China doesn't.

All countries have failures as part learning curve. Very few countries have this many successes.

All shown at Zhuhai over the years:

Let me put it in this way, China does not talk about anything unless it wants or needs to. Simple. Success or failure.

If you are telling me that China did not have failures ever, then I do not believe you. China just does not talk about them.

 

[Michael]

China, on the other hand - and the Zhuhai Airshow 2024 has just proven this again - announces almost nothing, NOTHING is touted or announced or claimed ... you have to rely on a few spotter photos and rumours and then suddenly almost 20 series J-15Ts appear, the Z-20J is in operation service, the J-15D is flying, etc. All without much fanfare.

This ...... It just happens to be the most painful for Chinese military fans.

The Chinese army and military industrialization enterprises, rarely release information about weapons and equipment directly. This is where Chinese military fans suffer the most. We often argue about it on social media without any real evidence from each other. Instead, they, often when we pay no attention, suddenly release some shocking news.
The emotional curve of Chinese military fans fluctuates too much.

If you are telling me that China did not have failures ever, then I do not believe you. China just does not talk about them.

There have been many failures in the development of China's military industry as well.
It's just that you are in the English-speaking world.
The English-speaking world is not the Chinese home turf. Those who dominate the English-speaking world will selectively report or deliberately distort certain reports.
If you really want to understand China, you need to try to learn some Chinese first, and then you can try to enter the Chinese world. Believe me, that world is totally different from the one you perceive.

 

[Oscar]

They renamed it! LOL!

People make fun of Tejas for being late. Tejas is nothing in front of Sitara. Its HJT-36 Sitara aka Yashas, a subsonic trainer jet was designed in 1997 by HAL. Its .... development is EXPECTED to be complete in 2026.

30 year! To make a .... subsonic.... trainer..... jet! Thats India's HAL for you!

This project had, NO engine to make. No Radar to make. No complex control laws to make. Just basic subsonic jet.

I believe they changed engine requirement 2 or 3 times. They got spin control wrong 2 or 3 times. The jet now has nothing in common with jet in 1997. Its HAL learning how to make a subsonic jet as if. LOL!

What was wrong with Sitara? Some issue with linguistic roots on the name?

As if that would solve bad project management - HAL needs an audit!
Top to bottom - who is working there, what their qualifications are, accomplishments are - then whether they belong there. Remind me of the lady incharge of submarine alloys in the US who was approving defective material because she just happened to sit on the role and just got forgotten.

 

[Ak01]

Not America?

They are churning out SSNs and F-35(a true FGFA) like its nothing. But looks like Chinese programming is too strong.

BTW, thats what GE 414 is all about, otherwise you already have a 4th gen engine in Kaveri, but you are incapabe to do mass production in very high scale that you require for future.

You are actually taking lessons from US.

What makes Chinese designs 'untrue' FGFA's?

Do tell

 

[FuturePAF]

I've been ITCHING to make this exact same comment for some months now, never got around to it. The announcement mania of Indian sources is abominable; they can't seem to shut up and work quietly, and seem to have a compulsion to blabber something that has modest chances of success.

I know nothing about Russia, so cannot comment.

A reward system that’s focused on key individuals gets in the way of getting things done. A quiet reward system, reassuring hard work for those that toil in silence not only would be more effective. It seems to come from a world of PhD publish or perish mindset of peer reviewed journal articles, where all the i’ need to be dotted and all the t’ crossed.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The PAF shouldn't undermine this "mock up" for some day it might show up as a ferocious fighter! So, they should get the best out of this model and start working on tactics, in cooperation with their strategic partners, to counter it...

The PAF Chief, for a reason, has publicly stated the procurement of J-35s on an emergency basis, and the projected local production of KAAN has been leaked to the media. These work as a detterance. An early bird collects the worm...

*Selchuk Bayraktar has a publicly disclosed doctrine: 10 KEs for each Greek F-35. Whatever he has promised so far he has delivered by HIS PERMISSION.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What was wrong with Sitara? Some issue with linguistic roots on the name?

As if that would solve bad project management - HAL needs an audit!
Top to bottom - who is working there, what their qualifications are, accomplishments are - then whether they belong there. Remind me of the lady incharge of submarine alloys in the US who was approving defective material because she just happened to sit on the role and just got forgotten.

Reform, rather than audit. The surgeon's knife, and a close look at the quality of their managers.

On the departure of a CEO hired from outside from a joint venture in which they were partners, the best Chairman they have had in recent years remarked that they would never again allow an outsider a look in. That, from the father of the successful ALH programme. You can imagine the rest.

 

[AjayGhatak]

What was wrong with Sitara? Some issue with linguistic roots on the name?

It could be for all I know but I do believe that the name itself kinda become cursed. Like New Coke kind of thing. So it is a PR think for them too.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It seems to come from a world of PhD publish or perish mindset of peer reviewed journal articles, where all the i’ need to be dotted and all the t’ crossed.

Not sure about the origins of this. Perhaps it may be due to the bad example set by some earlier incumbents in these key scientific and technical posts, in the DRDO and the ADE, and people now follow that dreadful example in mechanical fashion.

Publish or perish is fine, but those publications are peer-reviewed, and are not let pass as a routine; on the contrary, they are returned without publication as a routine. We have to look deeper.

On a deeper layer of feeling, without any data points to support it, my own fear is that we now have a thoroughly incompetent leadership that has absolutely no shadow of technical or scientific comprehension whatever. This must influence their preference of in-service subordinates, and to heads of ISRO with multiple astrologically-directed rings on their fingers, and similar abominations. It is a breed of superstitious, shallow intellects, filled with religiosity and no religious feeling whatever.

 

[Oscar]

Not sure about the origins of this. Perhaps it may be due to the bad example set by some earlier incumbents in these key scientific and technical posts, in the DRDO and the ADE, and people now follow that dreadful example in mechanical fashion.

Publish or perish is fine, but those publications are peer-reviewed, and are not let pass as a routine; on the contrary, they are returned without publication as a routine. We have to look deeper.

On a deeper layer of feeling, without any data points to support it, my own fear is that we now have a thoroughly incompetent leadership that has absolutely no shadow of technical or scientific comprehension whatever. This must influence their preference of in-service subordinates, and to heads of ISRO with multiple astrologically-directed rings on their fingers, and similar abominations. It is a breed of superstitious, shallow intellects, filled with religiosity and no religious feeling whatever.

 

[FuturePAF]

Not sure about the origins of this. Perhaps it may be due to the bad example set by some earlier incumbents in these key scientific and technical posts, in the DRDO and the ADE, and people now follow that dreadful example in mechanical fashion.

Publish or perish is fine, but those publications are peer-reviewed, and are not let pass as a routine; on the contrary, they are returned without publication as a routine. We have to look deeper.

On a deeper layer of feeling, without any data points to support it, my own fear is that we now have a thoroughly incompetent leadership that has absolutely no shadow of technical or scientific comprehension whatever. This must influence their preference of in-service subordinates, and to heads of ISRO with multiple astrologically-directed rings on their fingers, and similar abominations. It is a breed of superstitious, shallow intellects, filled with religiosity and no religious feeling whatever.

What I was getting at is technically skilled people may not be the best managers. Project management is its own expertise.