Israel’s Genocide in Gaza | 2023- till present

[OakTree23]

No, the pure Hanbali folllowing within KSA is limited to areas of Najd in particular Al-Qassim province with Buraydah (one of the food baskets of the country and a rural/agricultural region) being the heartland to this day. However Islamic concepts strongly emphasized by the Hanbali fiqh has a direct and indirect influence in most of KSA (irrespectie of sect) in particular strong emphasis on the Quran and ahadith (Sunnah in particular and practices of the Salaf).

Main difference:

The Hanbali school, unlike Hanafi and Maliki schools, rejected that a source of Islamic law can be a jurist's personal discretionary opinion or consensus of later generation Muslims on matters that serve the interest of Islam and community. Hanbalis hold that this is impossible and leads to abuse.​

This Wahhabi nonsense was always a slur used by certain Shias and anti-KSA/anti-Arab elements aimed at general Sunni masses.

Because the lot that were/are a part of ISIS/AQ has nothing to do with Hanbalism/Wahhabism and more to do with militant jihadism and the main source of that ideology (modern ideology moreover) is/was always Qutbism.

Qutbism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Which most scholars, Islamic as non-Islamic (secular/non-Muslim scholars of Islam/religion) also by large agree with.



Which explains the deep hatred that ISIS/AQ had/have for KSA. No other regime that they were more obsessed about during their heydays back in 2014-2016.

Anyway that whole Wahhabism (itself 1 of the 99 names of Allah (swt) - Al-Wahhab means The Bestower) has never bothered me the slighest or any Saudi Arabian that I know of only the ignorance sourrounding this poliitical movement and how it is used by some as a slur out of ignorance and as a catch all word for every bogeyman that group x or y of Muslims use for their agenda or when doing their blame game. For instance it is very popular among failed Muslim nations to blame their OWN self-inflicted problems on some mythical non-existent sect. No need to mention their origins here and their agenda. Seen it time and time again and it is as funny each single time. You as a Shia did it in this very thread as well, lol. However at least I see it very little nowadays and in say 5-10 years this idiotic rhetoric will die altogether.

And quite frankly overall Wahhabism had benefits for KSA as otherwise we would have superstitious/idiotic cults/sects that worship graves, tombs, "holy clerics" and what not stupidity that has heavily impacted large areas of the Muslim world negatively and made religion into a business for many such movements.

No, man. I mean Pakistan fighting for SA - it’s 50/50.

 

[_Arabia_]

No, man. I mean Pakistan fighting for SA - it’s 50/50.

No, I don't believe that for one second. As I wrote I don't believe that a single Muslim-majority country would come to the aid of KSA by declaring war on USA/Israel/West/NATO in case of an all-out invasion of say Makkah and Madinah. For starters the Muslim world, as I also wrote, has no power to stop such an invasion in the first place. We also have all seen what has occurred in Gaza and earlier what occurred in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Maybe in 20-50 years time this will change when the Muslim world (as a collective) gets stronger on all fronts.

But even I doubt that because the very same concept of a nation state as it functions today is that everyone is mostly out there for itself and the regimes/deep states of each country are by design only acting in their own self-interests and I do not see that ever changing.

Even the strongest and only real military/political alliance of worth in the world (NATO) is far from perfect and has never really been tested nor do I personally believe that article 5 would ever be activated in case say Russia decides to invade Estonia in 5 years time. I don't see the US (no NATO without the US) risking WW3 and a nuclear war with Russia for the sake of Estonia.

I also don't see Europeans fighting an existential war in case USA decides to fight with China.

Just like I don't see Russia and supposed strategic allies of China doing much to help China in case of US/Western attack on China, such as in declaring war on the aggressors.

We saw that with China in regards to Ukraine as well.

So actually this is a wider human problem and singling out Muslims in regards to Gaza is wrong. It is mostly human behaviour.

Even the pro-Palestinian keyboard warriors here (mostly sitting in the West) labelling people x or y and leader x or y on their sofa in the safety of their homes, are not doing anything to help Gaza on the ground let alone going there to fight the IDF because they value their lives and have other priorities. Which is perfectly normal human behaviour. But those people should at the same time not be criticizing leaders with actual responsibilities for entire countries (well-being) and millions of people who are put in a tough spot and have little maneuvering ability in regards to the US/West.

King Abdullah of Jordan has no choice but to try and do whatever is the best for Jordan and his people and the idea that he is somehow indifferent to Palestine when his wife is a Palestinian, his country has welcomed millions of Palestinians (his family did that, nobody else), his children are half Palestinians, him constantly talking about the plight of Palestinians his whole reign, is quite frankly not to be taken seriously. In any case WTF can Jordan even do here? It is a bit rich to be criticizing him from your safety of your sofa in the West. At least his taxes are not founding the Israeli genocide/occupation directly. My point is that he is not much different from any Muslim leader out there. The difference is that some of them bark a bit louder than others but in reality none have changed the status quo in any way and all are the mercy of US/West/Israel at the end of the day.

And I am being brutally honest/frank here and I don't care if I have hurt the feelings of some people here by stating the truth. Believe me, I would love nothing else than for Palestinians to have their own prosperous country and they being a genuine part of the Arab world with all the rights that we also enjoy but realistically speaking there is little we can do here. It is not like we have the ability to vanish Israel from its existence (without destroying Palestine itself and Palestinians) or challenge the US militarily. Which is the main problem here and always was.

That and obviously the lack of Arab and Muslim unity between leaderships/nation states and to an extend even people albeit my personal impression is that Arab unity is supported by the vast majority of Arab masses and similarly Muslim unity among observant Muslims. But we are living in strange/challenging times overall with old traditions dying, religion having less and less influence, traditional families etc. With the upcoming AI revolution, focus on robots etc. this will further change our current world completely. Maybe even concepts of nation states/ethnicities etc. (basically tribalism in its modern form) will one day end as well and a new world will emerge.

But to be honest I don't just look at Palestine from the viewpoint of ethnicity and kinship (as an Arab) or religious kinship (Muslims and even to a larger extend the Abrahamic connection - Palestinian Christians) but also that of political/social justice and rights. Which is why I think this also tends to resonate with non-Muslims and non-Arabs which makes sense.

 

[Meengla]

No, I don't believe that for one second. As I wrote I don't believe that a single Muslim-majority country would come to the aid of KSA by declaring war on USA/Israel/West/NATO in case of an all-out invasion of say Makkah and Madinah. For starters the Muslim world, as I also wrote, has no power to stop such an invasion in the first place. We also have all seen what has occurred in Gaza and earlier what occurred in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Look, it is talking hypothetical and you are right, there is a big 'IF' a direct attack on Saudi Arabia happens. But I believe Pakistan will get involved in that case. And I also believe Israelis consider Pakistan a mortal threat and in the past 15+ months, Pakistani nukes were mentioned multiple times in the Western press as a factor and even Netanyahu mentioned Pakistan and Iran as the greatest threats to Israel. You may want to watch an interview of a former Pakistani Foreign Minister Kasuri who, for the first time, publicly shook hand with the Israeli FM in 2005/6. The Israeli FM complained 'why you Pakistanis are more Palestinians then the Palestinians?'. Kasuri's response also contained a veiled warning to Israel: 'We know what you are supplying India and if you continue like that then we too have options to arm Palestinians'. I believe Kasuri's statement; he is a credible, very smart diplomat.

Also, Pakistanis are extremely anti-Israel to the point that some serious analysts in Pakistan even say Pakistan should not recognize Israel even if all Arab nations recognize. Also, Pakistan, for better or worse, is an ideological Islamic nation whose very foundation rests on Islamism. It is the Pakistani economy, which came to near bankruptcy just a couple of years ago and its dependence the West and Pakistan's perennial hostility with West-backed powerful India which greatly limit Pakistan's options.

But no point debating the hypotheticals.

 

[Starlord]

You have an arrogant attitude.. on top of understanding problems..read the second paragraph..of my post.. don't pretend you didn't read it..

I've read your post but I was referencing to your past posts of how KSA/ME can't fight Israel/America but now you are saying that if Jordan is attack Arab armies will be marching, and Jordanians have to hold until then, stop acting like a spoiled child and sending me warning when my Post did not break any PDF rule, I was on PDF way before you and know its rules better than you. So if you want to have a critical conversation stop sending these Warning, otherwise i don't have to or have any intention of engaging with you anymore in this thread.
@Musings adding you here just in case.

 

[Starlord]

Look, it is talking hypothetical and you are right, there is a big 'IF' a direct attack on Saudi Arabia happens. But I believe Pakistan will get involved in that case. And I also believe Israelis consider Pakistan a mortal threat and in the past 15+ months, Pakistani nukes were mentioned multiple times in the Western press as a factor and even Netanyahu mentioned Pakistan and Iran as the greatest threats to Israel. You may want to watch an interview of a former Pakistani Foreign Minister Kasuri who, for the first time, publicly shook hand with the Israeli FM in 2005/6. The Israeli FM complained 'why you Pakistanis are more Palestinians then the Palestinians?'. Kasuri's response also contained a veiled warning to Israel: 'We know what you are supplying India and if you continue like that then we too have options to arm Palestinians'. I believe Kasuri's statement; he is a credible, very smart diplomat.

Also, Pakistanis are extremely anti-Israel to the point that some serious analysts in Pakistan even say Pakistan should not recognize Israel even if all Arab nations recognize. Also, Pakistan, for better or worse, is an ideological Islamic nation whose very foundation rests on Islamism. It is the Pakistani economy, which came to near bankruptcy just a couple of years ago and its dependence the West and Pakistan's perennial hostility with West-backed powerful India which greatly limit Pakistan's options.

But no point debating the hypotheticals.

Pakistani pilots volunteer in Arab-Israeli wars, if KSA is threatened in any shape of form you will see many Volunteers from all three branches of Armed force, and in the aftermath you might even see a full pledge of KSA protection by Pakistani Nukes, Mecca/Medina is no joke to Any Muslims let alone Pakistani's who are extremely/deeply religious and even the Armed forces. Pakistan is very unhinged and Israel knows that very well, that is why America keep a close eye on Pakistan and what Pakistan buy militarily or its missile Program, the biggest Disadvantage Israel has is its small landmass, in a worse case scenario where Ballistic Missiles or nukes are launched towards Mecca/Medina, all Pakistan has to do is coordinate few strikes on Israel with nukes and make that land inhabitable for any human being for 10,000 years, few Nukes and Israel is done, people will run and no one will return, whities will be going back to EU/America, while the rest that stays will die a slow painful death by radiation. But lets hope that it doesn't comes to that, and ME/Arabs grow a pair and finally stand up for themselves and Palestinians, cause sooner or later they will come under the corsair of Israel/America.

 

[Shags101]

To be fair look at the UAE and how they are Zionist slaves.

That comment is a little racist and while being half white may have contributed to his traitory it is not the only reason why as plenty of full blooded Arabs are traitors as well.

Definitely racist many Muslims of different races who would definitely agree allah didn’t create just one color or one people to follow his word

 

[Meengla]

all Pakistan has to do is coordinate few strikes on Israel with nukes and make that land inhabitable for any human being for 10,000 years, few Nukes and Israel is done, people will run and no one will return, whities will be going back to EU/America, while the rest that stays will die a slow painful death by radiation

To some of you young folks here, a small clip from decades ago. The movie 'Crimson Tides' is itself worth watching.

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[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

As for Pakistan in regards to KSA, not even you believe that Pakistan (military regime) would risk its existence for KSA in case of an all out war/invasion by USA/West/Israel. Just like no country will risk a war with India for the sake of Kashmir. So you are at least right about that part here.

So you believe borders are divine?
Russia can go for its minority ethnic kin in Ukraine but Arabs cannot? US and European zionists can lay claim to a territory, Arabs will pay charity but let zion establish... even do Abraham Accords!
Is there an accord between the sword and the neck?

Pakistan fought for its ethnic kin and sustained decades long struggle until a spineless hack sold them out... it is and will always be the hacks, the compromised lot, the house N-igres sell and murder their own for a small price or a perch.
Till the circle completes... everything comes on its head!

 

[Hassan Al-Somal]

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Tomorrow will be the largest batch of Palestinian prisoners released since the beginning of the deal:

369 prisoners are expected to be released from Israeli prisons.

333 prisoners, who were arrested during the ground operation in the Gaza Strip after 10/7, will be returned to the Strip.

10 prisoners will be released to the West Bank.

One prisoner will be released to East Jerusalem.

25 prisoners sentenced to life imprisonment will be deported to the Gaza Strip or abroad via Egypt."

 

[_Arabia_]

Look, it is talking hypothetical and you are right, there is a big 'IF' a direct attack on Saudi Arabia happens. But I believe Pakistan will get involved in that case. And I also believe Israelis consider Pakistan a mortal threat and in the past 15+ months, Pakistani nukes were mentioned multiple times in the Western press as a factor and even Netanyahu mentioned Pakistan and Iran as the greatest threats to Israel. You may want to watch an interview of a former Pakistani Foreign Minister Kasuri who, for the first time, publicly shook hand with the Israeli FM in 2005/6. The Israeli FM complained 'why you Pakistanis are more Palestinians then the Palestinians?'. Kasuri's response also contained a veiled warning to Israel: 'We know what you are supplying India and if you continue like that then we too have options to arm Palestinians'. I believe Kasuri's statement; he is a credible, very smart diplomat.

Also, Pakistanis are extremely anti-Israel to the point that some serious analysts in Pakistan even say Pakistan should not recognize Israel even if all Arab nations recognize. Also, Pakistan, for better or worse, is an ideological Islamic nation whose very foundation rests on Islamism. It is the Pakistani economy, which came to near bankruptcy just a couple of years ago and its dependence the West and Pakistan's perennial hostility with West-backed powerful India which greatly limit Pakistan's options.

But no point debating the hypotheticals.

Everyone is free to their own opinions, events in the world (modern era) prove my previous points.

Also there is no way that Pakistan will risk using its nukes (which are only for protecting the Pakistani military regime - otherwise it would have been used against Israel ages ago or against the US when they invaded Afghanistan next door and Iraq etc.).

If those in power in Pakistan were genuinely inspired by an Islamic zeal and not the protection of their regime's survival, they would have shared their nuclear tech with all major non-hostile Islamic powers. On top of my head those could easily be KSA, Indonesia, Turkey, Iran, Egypt etc. Yet that has never occurred for reasons we all know.

And let us presume in some alternative universe that Pakistan went "full retard" in the geopolitical wording and declared an all out war with Israel/USA/West, Pakistan itself would be nuked and nothing would be left of it.

So you believe borders are divine?
Russia can go for its minority ethnic kin in Ukraine but Arabs cannot? US and European zionists can lay claim to a territory, Arabs will pay charity but let zion establish... even do Abraham Accords!
Is there an accord between the sword and the neck?

Pakistan fought for its ethnic kin and sustained decades long struggle until a spineless hack sold them out... it is and will always be the hacks, the compromised lot, the house N-igres sell and murder their own for a small price or a perch.
Till the circle completes... everything comes on its head!

Where have I stated anything about the divinity of borders? What are you even talking about?

All borders are man made as are all nation states. Nothing "natural" about them.

The difference is that Ukraine is a piece of cake militarily compared to nuclear armed Israel fully backed by USA where the same Zionists are calling all the shots for the entire world to see. Not to mention the remaining NATO and West. Apples and oranges! Not only that the areas of Ukraine that Russia have conquered are next door to Russia, inhabited by millions of Russians and Ukraine as a whole only connection to EU/NATO/West is through Poland/Slovakia/Ukraine/Romania in the West - far away from the areas of war. Not to mention Ukraine being landlocked as the Black Sea is basically landlocked and one large lake. Unlike Israel with has unrestricted access to the Mediterranean.

I mean are you really comparing Ukraine with Israel? Not sure if serious.

Not to mention that Russia has the most nuclear weapons on the planet and Arabs/Muslims (aside from bankrupt Pakistan) have what exactly?

Fought in the same manner as Arabs did against a stronger power but eventually to no avail in both cases.

Also why are you making this conflict to be some kind of "ethnic" thing? Are you not supposed to be a Muslim? If that is the case, ethnicity has no bearing here at all. The obligation of a Indonesian Muslim is as big as that of an Arab or Brazilian Muslim.

 

[Meengla]

Also there is no way that Pakistan will risk using its nukes (which are only for protecting the Pakistani military regime - otherwise it would have been used against Israel ages ago or against the US when they invaded Afghanistan next door and Iraq etc.).

Bolded part.
Tells me how uninformed you are about Pakistan and how much this forum's cult-followers of a certain political party in Pakistan have misled non-Pakistanis here.
You really should stay on the Middle Eastern topics, at most!

 

[hussain0216]

I don’t know that poster but I want to slap the s-it out of any Muslim that throws around terms like “Racism” and “Liberalism.” Theres many in Pakistan too that use this term. They think their bubble of elite highly educated social circle means the rest of the world is one big kumbaya camp fire.

F those Muslims kids mixed with Christian. Far as I’m concerned they were born compromised. Enough of this turn the other g*y western crap

You see it here, any Muslim who marries let's say a white woman who is Christian/atheist the kids always turn out fcuked up

 

[_Arabia_]

Bolded part.
Tells me how uninformed you are about Pakistan and how much this forum's cult-followers of a certain political party in Pakistan have misled non-Pakistanis here.
You really should stay on the Middle Eastern topics, at most!

Nothing uniformed. Every informed person, Pakistani as well as non-Pakistani knows that the Pakistani military has been calling the shots since the very inception of Pakistan in 1947 which again was created by the class of people that was previously loyal and trained by the British Raj when what is today Pakistan was a British colony. The Pakistani military establishment is what holds the glue together in Pakistan.

I mean you are talking about a country that was ruled by the military directly between 1958-1971, 1977-1988 and 1999-2008.

Military coups in Pakistan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It is like saying that KSA has not been ruled/dominated by House of Saud and allied establishment in the form of most important families in a complex power-sharing agreement which previously also included the Al ash-Sheikh family but less so nowadays.

Anyway my previous points are still standing irrespective of opinions on whoever controls Pakistan or any other Muslim country for that matter.

As for "cults" or Imran Khan, as a non-Pakistani who does not speak Urdu and who does not follow internal Pakistani politics on a weekly basis, I am not in the business of picking sides but I am aware that there are large pro-IK and anti-IK segments within the Pakistani population home and abroad.

For me to pick sides I would need to have lived in Pakistan during each regime in power, have had family members/visiting regularly in order to have an somewhat informed opinion about who is the "good" and "bad" party here.

 

[_Arabia_]

Pakistani pilots volunteer in Arab-Israeli wars, if KSA is threatened in any shape of form you will see many Volunteers from all three branches of Armed force, and in the aftermath you might even see a full pledge of KSA protection by Pakistani Nukes, Mecca/Medina is no joke to Any Muslims let alone Pakistani's who are extremely/deeply religious and even the Armed forces. Pakistan is very unhinged and Israel knows that very well, that is why America keep a close eye on Pakistan and what Pakistan buy militarily or its missile Program, the biggest Disadvantage Israel has is its small landmass, in a worse case scenario where Ballistic Missiles or nukes are launched towards Mecca/Medina, all Pakistan has to do is coordinate few strikes on Israel with nukes and make that land inhabitable for any human being for 10,000 years, few Nukes and Israel is done, people will run and no one will return, whities will be going back to EU/America, while the rest that stays will die a slow painful death by radiation. But lets hope that it doesn't comes to that, and ME/Arabs grow a pair and finally stand up for themselves and Palestinians, cause sooner or later they will come under the corsair of Israel/America.

I already wrote that a direct attack on Makkah and Madinah by USA/Israel/West/NATO would create a MASSIVE Muslim volunteer fighting force/movement but I was specifically referring to Muslim states coming to the direct aid of KSA by declaring war on USA/Israel/NATO/West with everything this entails of risks.

Personally I don't see that ever happening. In fact I predict that even other GCC states (regimes - I am talking about people in power not ordinary people here) would be on side of the aggressor and fantasizing about the prospect of dividing one of the richest and largest nations on the planet (KSA) between themselves similar to how Gaddafi, the previous Emir of Qatar etc. were caught in leaked phone calls conspiring to create unrest in KSA in order to divide it during the Arab Spring. Such clips surfaced online during the KSA/Egypt/UAE/Bahrain/Jordan etc. split with Qatar back in 2017.

My belief, demonstrated by events on the ground and the very nature of nation states/power theories, is that each nation state and its regime (those in power) and deep state is at it for themselves first and foremost and states behave like that for a reason in practice. Nobody is going to sacrifice themselves for state x or y as say an ordinary human could do if we saw a little child at risk of drowning in some lake/river/sea for example. And that too is not something that every human would do. Far from it.

Irrespective of Muslims or not.

Feel free to disagree.

 

[FuturePAF]

I disagree because Israeli conduct had nothing to do with the Abraham Accords as nothing has changed on the ground. It is just a continuation of their conduct since 1948. They felt humiliated after October 7th and lashed out even more rabidly than expected/is usual of them which is saying a lot.

Nothing that UAE, Morocco (particularly shameful by importing Israeli weapons while we speak - UAE never went to such lows), Sudan (civil war torn country unfortunately), Bahrain and those that signed ages ago (Egypt and Jordan) could do anything about. Israel's reaction is/was completely irrelevant to the Abraham Accords which by large are already dead and seemingly only relevant for the likes of Morocco and UAE.

The only thing that keeps Israel alive in its current format is the USA/West. Whatever 550 million Arabs and almost 2 billion Muslims do in this regard is mostly irrelevant as long as Israel enjoys US/Western monetary, political and most importantly military support and aid to the extend that Israel remains the only nuclear armed state in the region by design. It is basically and acts like it too, an colonial Western outpost in the heartland of the Arab and Muslim world - again by design.

Anyway my criticism is valid, the reaction or rather inaction of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia has been as shameful and there is no escaping from that. Those are even supposed democracies where its local people have elected their leaders. In the case of Pakistan this is only on paper as the military has controlled the country since 1947 but nevertheless. Can't say the same about the average people in those few Arab countries that have normalized.

Which of course in itself is wrong and equally shameful but just find it comical that people who live in West and pay taxes that found the genocide in Gaza (unlike local Arabs of the region) are only good at obsessing about Arabs as a whole rather than aim their focus on the culprits which are not Arabs. The only ones that are culprits among the Arabs are the regimes that have recognized Israel and have dealings with them. But so does Turkey, Azerbaijan etc. and even much closer, more strategic and for much longer but somehow we don't hear much criticism from this hypocritical lot sitting in the same West. Only usual obsession about Arabs.

Nobody takes their concern for Palestine and Palestinians (Arabs themselves) seriously really.

Pakistan is not a democracy, thanks in no small part to the GCC countries, that enable the status quo leadership. I know you speak from some or many GCC government(s) speaking points, so further debate is useless. Good day to you.