Why Secularism will Worsen Pakistan’s security situation

[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

Even more disconcerting is the way some posts glorify the distancing that has occurred between their host societies and themselves.
It seems that locking up an entire community into a ghetto is a great achievement. That is what led to the exclusive, finally racist Outlook of Ashkenazi Jews and Boers in South Africa.
And that is supposed to lead to a morally superior way of life, and neutralise the contempt and hatred that such behaviour provokes, among precisely those whose opinions count, when deciding how to respond to strife elsewhere, and the urgent need to accommodate vulnerable individuals from those spots?

Devils advocate... Joe to the rescue... I'm glad you said what you did!

Fundamental to the cause or hell in the handbasket!

The essence of

109:6
لـكـم ديـنـكـم و لـي ديـن
"for you is your religion, and for me is my religion"

If degeneracy begs a price then it's ramifications must rest with the culprits.
The ultimate self evident sieve!

 

[AViet]

Before you post highly divisive and inflammatory opinions - please familiarise yourself with the three concepts for managing personal beliefs:

1. Atheism - where the state bans and actively penalises people for religious beliefs e.g. China, North Korea

2. Theocracy - where the state promotes a particular belief system over others and might even punish alternative beliefs e.g. Iran, Israel

3. Secularism - where the state doesn’t promote, police or suppress religion.

It’s no surprise that religion is strong in secular and democratic countries. USA, South Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore etc being the classic example of this.

I believe China has never banned any religion, except when it can threaten the government or national security, i.e. becoming radical.

During China cultural revolution (same as during 1954 land reform in Vietnam), a lot of pagoda, temples, churches, etc. were destroyed, but it was only a short-term phenomenon.

But Chinese (probably same as Vietnamese) have never been too religious over history, More than 100 years ago, when Vietnam was under France's rule, there was even a famous Vietnamse author who pointed out that Vietnam was weak (hence falling into French's hand) because Vietnamese had never been religious and not believed in anything strongly.

 

[politicallyinterested]

Some saying Pakistan needs Islam. Which Islam? The Wahhabi Islam? The Deobandi Islam? The Al-Hadees Islam? The Bralve Islam? The Twelver Shia Islam? The Fiver Shia Islam? Ismailia? One of the various Sufi sects?

I can tell you right now, with how divided Pakistan is along sect lines, any group's interpretations being imposed will cause the others to fight back.

You have no idea what you're asking.

Also, secularism doesn't mean the absence of religion, or atheism. It's less French secularism thats being proposed, and more Canadian secularism Pakistan needs, where religious beliefs are respected and even celebrated, instead of being shunned and hidden away.

Pakistan is one of the few countries in the world that, while having a mandatory muslim identity, cannot choose to play favorites, thus a custom form of secularism is needed.

What Pakistan needs is rationality. Quality education. A proper sense of identity. Less overdosing on religious dogmatism.

When you criticise the unique weaponisation of religion by the Pakistani state which destroyed the above, people wrongfully perceive it as an attack against religion. But they don't see the regressive zombies it has produced in society who lack their own sense of independent identity, rationality, desperately seek validation from other countries/people, and lack simple aspects of common sense. Their entire world view is tainted by a heavily distorted religious bias that fails to see the complexities of reality.

For 20 years and longer they worshipped Afghans and what not as their Muslim saviours and today they are being called kaffir Hindu nasl by them and in a cold war with their own creation. The people are high on their own mass indoctrination supply that clouds their judgement or perception of reality.

 

[arjunk]

The issue Pakistan faces is not rocket science. You have Pashtun separatism and Baloch separatism. These aren't actually religious in nature but ethnic, the fundamental problem is ethnicity.

On top of this, you guys want to double down on the exact same strategy which destroyed your entire country. You radicalised your entire society, you destroyed its entire fabric, creates masses of zombies, and you don't even have a proper sense of identity.

Ironically you guys are unable to see the level of damage it has done. This exact reliance on religion to somehow mould your country created TLP masses, Taliban sympathisers, mullahs, and extremists. And it also created an entire generation with no sense of identity apart from 'muh muslim ummah' ridden with an inferiority complex. They have zero understanding of geopolitics and in fact they consider nationalism or basic logic to literally be the greatest evil or fitnah.

Pakistan is actually the perfect example proving why Turkey's Ataturk was completely correct.

TTP has now evolved into a Pashtun nationalist ‘human rights’ group, but at its peak strength, it was primarily a religious one. ISKP is not an ethnic group yet commits some of the deadliest attacks on Pakistan.

The issue Pakistan faces is not rocket science. You have Pashtun separatism and Baloch separatism. These aren't actually religious in nature but ethnic, the fundamental problem is ethnicity.

On top of this, you guys want to double down on the exact same strategy which destroyed your entire country. You radicalised your entire society, you destroyed its entire fabric, creates masses of zombies, and you don't even have a proper sense of identity.

Ironically you guys are unable to see the level of damage it has done. This exact reliance on religion to somehow mould your country created TLP masses, Taliban sympathisers, mullahs, and extremists. And it also created an entire generation with no sense of identity apart from 'muh muslim ummah' ridden with an inferiority complex. They have zero understanding of geopolitics and in fact they consider nationalism or basic logic to literally be the greatest evil or fitnah.

Pakistan is actually the perfect example proving why Turkey's Ataturk was completely correct.

You don’t have to go to one extreme (mullahism) or the other (secularism). I don’t know why you’re putting words in my mouth.

 

[arjunk]

As if religion has solved the groups - Balochistan is pretty much a lost cause - TTP is going to be even more ethnonationalist and all other sectarian fronts are active - but lets do ostrich and blame it on secularism or mangoes for that matter.

Religion hasn’t ‘solved’ it completely, but if the mainstream ideology were not Islam, then mainstream ethnic hatred would be far worse.

Balochistan is a lost cause because the feudals ruling it oppress the locals, while the state is afraid to confront the feudals (some of which command private militia of tens of thousands of men). By not implementing Islamic practices and punishing feudals for ruling like Pharoahs, the state worsened the situation. Distracting the masses with naked women and alcohol will not fix the underlying problems, it just turns your nation into a sexually frustrated chapri-fest like India.

Twitter being musk’s little social experiment to shove right wing rage bait down everyone’s throats hasn’t helped the youth’s mental health either.

 

[arjunk]

Literal meaning of religion is ' look back ' ....religion is retrogressive in it's nature ......I n case of Pakistan , religion did provide the glue to bond the nation together to some extent ... question is ! Is religion a desirable glue ?...... morality is subjective ..... morality build on logic and reason is more lasting than the divine mumbo jumbo .

Choose your poison — division on basis of genetics (unchangeable, the other guy is a subhuman no matter what he does) or on the basis of ideology/religion/sect (room for agreement and disagreement, we both are Muslims/people of the book/humans at the end of the day)

Until you have a highly educated economically sound population the above poisons will always be mainstream in society.

 

[arjunk]

Some saying Pakistan needs Islam. Which Islam? The Wahhabi Islam? The Deobandi Islam? The Al-Hadees Islam? The Bralve Islam? The Twelver Shia Islam? The Fiver Shia Islam? Ismailia? One of the various Sufi sects?

I can tell you right now, with how divided Pakistan is along sect lines, any group's interpretations being imposed will cause the others to fight back.

You have no idea what you're asking.

Also, secularism doesn't mean the absence of religion, or atheism. It's less French secularism thats being proposed, and more Canadian secularism Pakistan needs, where religious beliefs are respected and even celebrated, instead of being shunned and hidden away.

Pakistan is one of the few countries in the world that, while having a mandatory muslim identity, cannot choose to play favorites, thus a custom form of secularism is needed.

Logic dictates that the Quran should be the only source of national religious law. Sectarian beliefs are individual, but inciting sectarian hatred should be illegal.

 

[arjunk]

Sectarian happened because lack of Islam knowledge

Nothing wrong with Islam, you go see Donald Trump inaguration there you know USA is basically Christian country

Quran: Al Kafirun

1. Say: O disbelievers,
2. I do not worship what you worship.
3. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
4. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
5. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
6. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.

Quran: Al Baqarah verse 256

Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood.1 So whoever renounces false gods and believes in Allah has certainly grasped the firmest, unfailing hand-hold. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah 256 - Read, Listen, Translation, Tafsir - Quran.com

Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah 256 - لا اكراه في الدين قد تبين الرشد من الغي فمن يكفر بالطاغوت ويؤمن بالله فقد استمسك بالعروة الوثقى لا انفصام لها والله سميع ع...

quran.com

Thus, even in an Islamic state, tolerance of other religions is a must. Why, then, is there so much Zionist/hindutva hatred for Islamic societies?

 

[Sharma Ji]

Before you post highly divisive and inflammatory opinions - please familiarise yourself with the three concepts for managing personal beliefs:

1. Atheism - where the state bans and actively penalises people for religious beliefs e.g. China, North Korea

2. Theocracy - where the state promotes a particular belief system over others and might even punish alternative beliefs e.g. Iran, Israel

3. Secularism - where the state doesn’t promote, police or suppress religion.

It’s no surprise that religion is strong in secular and democratic countries. USA, South Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore etc being the classic example of this.

and then there's the Indian version of secularism

where the state actively promotes everyone's religious bs

 

[Indos]

Thus, even in an Islamic state, tolerance of other religions is a must. Why, then, is there so much Zionist/hindutva hatred for Islamic societies?

Even prophet Muhammad and the first 4 Caliph never said basically nationalist state of Madinah as Islamic State.

Madinah state based on Madinah charter with nationalistic point of view where Muslim, Christian, Jew live side by side and protect each other

 

[arjunk]

Even prophet Muhammad and the first 4 Caliph never said basically nationalist state of Madinah as Islamic State.

Madinah state based on Madinah charter with nationalistic point of view where Muslim, Christian, Jew live side by side and protect each other

No one is saying nationalism is haram, nor that other religions cannot live peacefully in an Islamic republic.

 

[Indos]

No one is saying nationalism is haram, nor that other religions cannot live peacefully in an Islamic republic.

This is something that become a lesson. Using Islamic brand should not be a focus, a symbol is not really important as long as Islamic value is practice by majority of the people with their own willingness, not by force as Quran is stating clearly that there should not be any compulsion in religion

 

[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

Logic dictates that the Quran should be the only source of national religious law. Sectarian beliefs are individual, but inciting sectarian hatred should be illegal.

There are those living(life forms) on this planet bound by their nature... yet prisoners of conscience are devoid of constitution... or so they think.

The confused lot assume that they are free or so they're told... except the easiest of targets... as mere pawns in the game of power. Surrendering their agency to the power hungary for mere hot air and fleeting promises.

Most of the confused lot here isn't worth responding to as they've yet to reconcile with their own assumptions and ideals burn to the ground and then either double down and drown with them or rise and mend their ways.

 

[EugeneP]

A common misconception is that by secularising the country, religious extremist groups like TTP/ISKP will lose support, improving the security and economic situation of Pakistan.

The reality is, terrorism in Pakistan has no ideology; it is a result of genuine sentiments of vulnerable segments of society being exploited by malicious foreign actors to do their bidding (like destroying P3s and F-7s).

Removing Islam from Pakistan will not remove these sentiments, nor will such an undignified act of self hatred pacify the foreign hands behind the terrorists. (Rather, the world will laugh at you for surrendering your core ideology with such cowardice).

If Pakistan become secular, instead of facing a single religous terrorist group (TTP), the state would be fractured along the lines of its 60+ ethnicities, each with their own terrorist outfit. Imagine instead of just TTP, you have BLA, SRA on steroids?

As long as there is a largely illiterate and poor population constantly being exposed to hostile propaganda exemplified by genuine failures of governance, there will ALWAYS be a recruitment base for foreign controlled terrorist groups.

So what happens next?

The state would Balkanize along ethnic lines. Then the Indians would swoop in, dispose of their useful secular ethno-nationalist idiots, and embark on an Israel-style program of settler colonialism, just like they already are in the secularised occupied Kashmir valley. In the west, the militant Pashtuns and Baloch would be genocided Gaza-style and similarly replaced with Indian settler colonists. At best, the new ethnic states can hope to live as undignified slaves of India, like the Bangladeshis have for most of their history. (So much for the Sindhudeshis gaining freedom from UP-Bihari foreigners…)

There is no benefit to secularism - for Pakistan, it is as absurd an ideology as khwarji extremism is.

Instead, the state should strictly enforce moderate Islam, emphasizing the core principles of deen to ensure social harmony.

You don't have to worry about the premise and hence not be afraid of consequence. If all mothers give birth to sons, humanity will cease to exist. But no one loses sleep over that.

 

[That_Guy]

Logic dictates that the Quran should be the only source of national religious law. Sectarian beliefs are individual, but inciting sectarian hatred should be illegal.

You'd have Al-hadees and Wahhabis calling you a heretic, because for them ignoring the Hadith is blasphemy.