Why Secularism will Worsen Pakistan’s security situation

The State Shouldn't be "enforcing" any kind of religion, Who is the state to do so? Is Shahbaz Sharif a chosen leader by Allah? Instead it should be tolerant to all religions. If what you mean by adopting moderate islam is Islamic Laws, then sure. But why should the state be "enforcing" , adopting, or going out of its way in support of a specific religion, it isn't fair to everyone.
 
And you even saying this proves the problem with trying to impose Islam as the state religion in Pakistan.

Unlike in Saudi Arabia where 90% of the population follows a single sect, Pakistan has dozens of major sects, with millions of followers.

And that right there is what will cause violence.
Quran enforced by state. Everything else is individual opinion. Any attempt to incite sectarian hatred comes under blasphemy. Simple.

Eliminate foreign funded mullahs and empower people to read and understand the Quran themselves.
 
The State Shouldn't be "enforcing" any kind of religion, Who is the state to do so? Is Shahbaz Sharif a chosen leader by Allah? Instead it should be tolerant to all religions. If what you mean by adopting moderate islam is Islamic Laws, then sure. But why should the state be "enforcing" , adopting, or going out of its way in support of a specific religion, it isn't fair to everyone.
By definition, enforcing Islam means justice for all religions. See the verses others have quoted here.
 
Quran enforced by state. Everything else is individual opinion. Any attempt to incite sectarian hatred comes under blasphemy. Simple.

Eliminate foreign funded mullahs and empower people to read and understand the Quran themselves.
Okay, who's interpretation of the Quran then? You'd think they're all the same, as the Quran is quite simple, but different sects disagree on the meaning of certain words, phrases, and even entire chapters.

The pure Quranist approach is also extremely rife with danger of sectarianism.
 
By definition, enforcing Islam means justice for all religions. See the verses others have quoted here.
Aren't you also the guy who suggested that non-Muslims and women should not be allowed to vote?
 
Okay, who's interpretation of the Quran then? You'd think they're all the same, as the Quran is quite simple, but different sects disagree on the meaning of certain words, phrases, and even entire chapters.

The pure Quranist approach is also extremely rife with danger of sectarianism.

It is and has been done for centuries. It wasn't until, scholarly discourses occurred, some interpretations lost favor others became imminent. Yours is not an attempt at serious enquiry nor a rebuttal but a knee-jerk reaction every secular resorts to... the key issue here a feeling of losing real or perceived perch. In most cases a minority cause championed for or on behalf of a minority become cause celebre to perpetuate further degeneracy.
 
It is and has been done for centuries. It wasn't until, scholarly discourses occurred, some interpretations lost favor others became imminent. Yours is not an attempt at serious enquiry nor a rebuttal but a knee-jerk reaction every secular resorts to... the key issue here a feeling of losing real or perceived perch. In most cases a minority cause championed for or on behalf of a minority become cause celebre to perpetuate further degeneracy.
Nonsense.

Disagreements have occurred since the near beginning.

Your comment ignores history.
 
Nonsense.

Disagreements have occurred since the near beginning.

Your comment ignores history.

Ignores? Volumes have been written but abandoned... that was the golden age which lasted for hundreds of years. It is a totally different topic.
Disagreement are totally natural and therefore tackled in scholastic manner and not by harping to degeneracy.
 
I agree with your comments. A drastic change in a country's values will inevitably lead to disruption or even collapse of the social order.

In 1979 the Chinese government announced that it was abandoning fundamentalist communism and taking a new path that was half-capitalist and half-socialist. This behavior caused the collapse of values and beliefs of Chinese people throughout the era. Social security rapidly deteriorated, crimes became more and more frequent, and people's morals rapidly degenerated. Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, China sank into misery. It was not until twenty years later, when the new generation became the backbone of our society, that these conditions were completely resolved.

Major values reforms may not necessarily have major gains, but they are bound to have major costs.

Major values reforms may not necessarily have major gains, I read your other comment and I guess you deleted it so I'm quoting this instead.

In this case, The opposite is true of Pakistan. A minority ruled state by a foreign aggressor for the sole purpose of economic drain allowed coercions and corruption at every single level of society. Depriving locals their language, culture and faith in fear that they may rise up against the tyranny and oppression. At heart of this manipulation was social engineering and manufacture of parallel structure. Civil servants were trained and military grunts were broken in...

.. much of this practice continues unabated.

...it has created generations of confused masses. Who have been culturally, politically and religiously divided. Each with their own shop... to the point where everything is surface deep and divisive... and everyone is powerless to do something about it... to the point of hopelessness. By removing the intellectuals and inteligencia, everything local has been deprived it's depth and gravitas.

Which is where this debate of secularism surfaces every few months. Pakistan is thoroughly secular... and people are culturally confused. Anything native, such as clothes or language are still different in positions of power, where local is considered regressive. Agendas have a seat and people have lost their mandate. They're easier to manipulate and shop keepers don't want to lose their undeserved perch.

The post could have been cogent, comprehensive and structured but it would have taken way too long and it is easier to lose interest so instead it is a hoj-poj…


"上梁不正下梁歪"

(Shàng liáng bù zhèng xià liáng wāi)

"If the upper beam is not straight, the lower beams will be crooked."



Lao Tzu

"If the government is sluggish and tolerant, the people will be honest and free from guile."

"If the government is prying and meddling, there will be constant infraction of the law."

"If the government is corrupt? then uprightness becomes rare, and goodness becomes strange."

China has a deep ingrained civilizational understanding... and it's distinction is such that cultural, social and religious imports become uniquely Chinese.


Well, we have it upside down south of Himalayas!



Background

Up until the Mogul rule the regions were governed under self rule that was undone by the champion of many here, Ranjit Singh, under a solitary goal. He purged the old order, sat his own governors and took power away from locals. Worst yet, by the time his spark and state faded under its own weight the British had arrived. Rule shifted from people, to agendas and ideologies! It was convenient for the occupation to have the mandate usurped by vested interests. And therfore first parties were in fact those of land owners. It is stupid to have the discourse revolve around finance and social values, but it is convenient.

Now,

The resultant state in Pakistan had a bureaucracy trained by the British that was high in optics. It was a ruling machine that was told how to behave and operate, how to keep the aura of power and prestige. How to stoke ego and create envy. It was distant and had disdain and contempt for the common man. The ones in were superior to the ones outside. Local language, culture, cuisine and arts were kept alive by the unkempt illiterates and positions of power were manned by chosen few, now a caste unto themselves, generationally gifted and endowed by the empire. They keep a distance from the locals and mingle as a local in western lands. The political ideology too is lost as it was never native and ones catering to these have moved on to a mishmash that belongs nowhere, same is true of religiously influenced polities. Each is a shop and a business. People assume them as representatives, they are not… nor are they true to their cause. They are LARPing a paradigm that left them long ago… so they must mimic it as religiously as possible.

It Is a twilight zone suffering entropy for as yet undetermined period of time to come… till the coma ends or the paradigm self distructs.

The apologists join in as the assimilated against the unwashed masses. Who deserve nothing better and like I shared the Chinese proverb blame them for their fate!
 
Major values reforms may not necessarily have major gains, I read your other comment and I guess you deleted it so I'm quoting this instead.

In this case, The opposite is true of Pakistan. A minority ruled state by a foreign aggressor for the sole purpose of economic drain allowed coercions and corruption at every single level of society. Depriving locals their language, culture and faith in fear that they may rise up against the tyranny and oppression. At heart of this manipulation was social engineering and manufacture of parallel structure. Civil servants were trained and military grunts were broken in...

.. much of this practice continues unabated.

...it has created generations of confused masses. Who have been culturally, politically and religiously divided. Each with their own shop... to the point where everything is surface deep and divisive... and everyone is powerless to do something about it... to the point of hopelessness. By removing the intellectuals and inteligencia, everything local has been deprived it's depth and gravitas.

Which is where this debate of secularism surfaces every few months. Pakistan is thoroughly secular... and people are culturally confused. Anything native, such as clothes or language are still different in positions of power, where local is considered regressive. Agendas have a seat and people have lost their mandate. They're easier to manipulate and shop keepers don't want to lose their undeserved perch.

The post could have been cogent, comprehensive and structured but it would have taken way too long and it is easier to lose interest so instead it is a hoj-poj…


"上梁不正下梁歪"

(Shàng liáng bù zhèng xià liáng wāi)

"If the upper beam is not straight, the lower beams will be crooked."



Lao Tzu

"If the government is sluggish and tolerant, the people will be honest and free from guile."

"If the government is prying and meddling, there will be constant infraction of the law."

"If the government is corrupt? then uprightness becomes rare, and goodness becomes strange."

China has a deep ingrained civilizational understanding... and it's distinction is such that cultural, social and religious imports become uniquely Chinese.


Well, we have it upside down south of Himalayas!



Background

Up until the Mogul rule the regions were governed under self rule that was undone by the champion of many here, Ranjit Singh, under a solitary goal. He purged the old order, sat his own governors and took power away from locals. Worst yet, by the time his spark and state faded under its own weight the British had arrived. Rule shifted from people, to agendas and ideologies! It was convenient for the occupation to have the mandate usurped by vested interests. And therfore first parties were in fact those of land owners. It is stupid to have the discourse revolve around finance and social values, but it is convenient.

Now,

The resultant state in Pakistan had a bureaucracy trained by the British that was high in optics. It was a ruling machine that was told how to behave and operate, how to keep the aura of power and prestige. How to stoke ego and create envy. It was distant and had disdain and contempt for the common man. The ones in were superior to the ones outside. Local language, culture, cuisine and arts were kept alive by the unkempt illiterates and positions of power were manned by chosen few, now a caste unto themselves, generationally gifted and endowed by the empire. They keep a distance from the locals and mingle as a local in western lands. The political ideology too is lost as it was never native and ones catering to these have moved on to a mishmash that belongs nowhere, same is true of religiously influenced polities. Each is a shop and a business. People assume them as representatives, they are not… nor are they true to their cause. They are LARPing a paradigm that left them long ago… so they must mimic it as religiously as possible.

It Is a twilight zone suffering entropy for as yet undetermined period of time to come… till the coma ends or the paradigm self distructs.

The apologists join in as the assimilated against the unwashed masses. Who deserve nothing better and like I shared the Chinese proverb blame them for their fate!

YES. I deleted a comment because I was afraid it would hurt my Pakistani brother's ego.

My opinion is the same as yours, the political system designed by Britain in the South Asian subcontinent was necessarily designed to serve the convenience of colonial rule. It was necessarily designed to encourage corruption, to encourage oppression and to increase the gap between the rich and the poor, and it was also necessarily designed to facilitate the control of the people by buying off the native elite.

This legacy of the colonial era should be overhauled.



btw: There is a book(<商君书>) in China that has been banned for 2,000 years. It summarizes in detail how brutal domination of a colonized area can maximize the plunder of resources and be less likely to lead to resistance. In all, it describes six methods: weakening the people, blocking knowledge, exhausting the people, striking at their national pride, impoverishing the people, and accustoming the people to being abused. Obviously, the colonial system devised by the British was bound to have similar means.

 
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Major values reforms may not necessarily have major gains, I read your other comment and I guess you deleted it so I'm quoting this instead.

In this case, The opposite is true of Pakistan. A minority ruled state by a foreign aggressor for the sole purpose of economic drain allowed coercions and corruption at every single level of society. Depriving locals their language, culture and faith in fear that they may rise up against the tyranny and oppression. At heart of this manipulation was social engineering and manufacture of parallel structure. Civil servants were trained and military grunts were broken in...

.. much of this practice continues unabated.

...it has created generations of confused masses. Who have been culturally, politically and religiously divided. Each with their own shop... to the point where everything is surface deep and divisive... and everyone is powerless to do something about it... to the point of hopelessness. By removing the intellectuals and inteligencia, everything local has been deprived it's depth and gravitas.

Which is where this debate of secularism surfaces every few months. Pakistan is thoroughly secular... and people are culturally confused. Anything native, such as clothes or language are still different in positions of power, where local is considered regressive. Agendas have a seat and people have lost their mandate. They're easier to manipulate and shop keepers don't want to lose their undeserved perch.

The post could have been cogent, comprehensive and structured but it would have taken way too long and it is easier to lose interest so instead it is a hoj-poj…


"上梁不正下梁歪"

(Shàng liáng bù zhèng xià liáng wāi)

"If the upper beam is not straight, the lower beams will be crooked."



Lao Tzu

"If the government is sluggish and tolerant, the people will be honest and free from guile."

"If the government is prying and meddling, there will be constant infraction of the law."

"If the government is corrupt? then uprightness becomes rare, and goodness becomes strange."

China has a deep ingrained civilizational understanding... and it's distinction is such that cultural, social and religious imports become uniquely Chinese.


Well, we have it upside down south of Himalayas!



Background

Up until the Mogul rule the regions were governed under self rule that was undone by the champion of many here, Ranjit Singh, under a solitary goal. He purged the old order, sat his own governors and took power away from locals. Worst yet, by the time his spark and state faded under its own weight the British had arrived. Rule shifted from people, to agendas and ideologies! It was convenient for the occupation to have the mandate usurped by vested interests. And therfore first parties were in fact those of land owners. It is stupid to have the discourse revolve around finance and social values, but it is convenient.

Now,

The resultant state in Pakistan had a bureaucracy trained by the British that was high in optics. It was a ruling machine that was told how to behave and operate, how to keep the aura of power and prestige. How to stoke ego and create envy. It was distant and had disdain and contempt for the common man. The ones in were superior to the ones outside. Local language, culture, cuisine and arts were kept alive by the unkempt illiterates and positions of power were manned by chosen few, now a caste unto themselves, generationally gifted and endowed by the empire. They keep a distance from the locals and mingle as a local in western lands. The political ideology too is lost as it was never native and ones catering to these have moved on to a mishmash that belongs nowhere, same is true of religiously influenced polities. Each is a shop and a business. People assume them as representatives, they are not… nor are they true to their cause. They are LARPing a paradigm that left them long ago… so they must mimic it as religiously as possible.

It Is a twilight zone suffering entropy for as yet undetermined period of time to come… till the coma ends or the paradigm self distructs.

The apologists join in as the assimilated against the unwashed masses. Who deserve nothing better and like I shared the Chinese proverb blame them for their fate!
Your note made bitter-sweet reading.

There is so much in it that is reflective of events as they took place, but there is also so much that is distorted through the lens of a seeking of a golden age of the past that never existed.

A detailed analysis of such a huge matter is almost impossible to do in such a forum. Do think, however, that your analysis is strongly concentrated on the experiences and the past legacy of a small part of the extended empire from which your country ultimately found its definition. Taking that narrow point of view as reflective of the whole, and otherwise rejecting the whole when it does not agree with a limited vision of the past, are both fallacious. What is sad is that considerable analysis and good analysis has gone into a subject about which the premises being defective, the conclusions cannot be correct.

"If the lower beams are not straight, the upper beams will stick out at odd angles."
 
Okay, who's interpretation of the Quran then? You'd think they're all the same, as the Quran is quite simple, but different sects disagree on the meaning of certain words, phrases, and even entire chapters.

The pure Quranist approach is also extremely rife with danger of sectarianism.
I am not sure that your dodgy audience even understands your reference to 'pure Quranists'.
 
Regarding the matter this is quite related :

O believers!˺ Do not insult what they invoke besides Allah or they will insult Allah spitefully out of ignorance. This is how We have made each people’s deeds appealing to them. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them of what they used to do.

@Joe Shearer additional info,
this aayat was written in Macca where his followers in minority.
 
There is so much in it that is reflective of events as they took place, but there is also so much that is distorted through the lens of a seeking of a golden age of the past that never existed.

No golden age is being attempted... only an attempt to alleviate those tangled in the current morass and seek to find a path out knowing the pitfalls is sought.

The rest is on the reader... besides there are more detractors than takers...
 
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