Reason behind the Rise & Fall of the Muslim Mind & Power?

[SaadH]

again bro.. Japan/Germany rose after the war. Muslims couldn't as we were enjoying the borrowed progress done 100+ years before.
Again, no single war or incident is responsible for Muslim era demise.

In simple words, muslims lack confidence in every discipline as they have lost practice and knowledge exchange. Be it commerce or science. Ottomans mainly benefited in later years from the toll tax on trade goods.

No theory in economics, science, social science, medicine, urban planning, war, diplomacy, history, etc came from the muslims world in later years.

If you have to pin it on a singular factor, then none qualifies more than the rise of Turks both in Ottoman and Mughal Empires respectively, the first controlling the whole world trade through it's strategic location and the latter being the biggest economy in the world, neither cultivated or patronized science and learning with their enormous resources.

Both were engaged in complacency, opulence, luxurious lifestyles and debauchery with their harems and useless monument building and patronage of sufi charlatans and singers/dancers.

 

[Goenitz]

If you have to pin it on a singular factor, then none qualifies more than the rise of Turks both in Ottoman and Mughal Empires respectively, the first controlling the whole world trade through it's strategic location and the latter being the biggest economy in the world, neither cultivated or patronized science and learning with their enormous resources.

Both were engaged in complacency, opulence, luxurious lifestyles and debauchery with their harems and useless monument building and patronage of sufi charlatans and singers/dancers.

True, but many geometrical rules and tools were the by-products of these artefacts. The water supply of Al-Hamra still baffles today's engineers.

 

[Developereo]

I am loath to bring an ethnic or sectarian angle to this discussion. The decline was and is universal across the Muslim world. It is myopic to look at just the Middle East and extrapolate across the entire Muslim world.

 

[HRK]

As far as I understood after little experience of few decades of my life only free mind could pursue the path of enlightenment and entertain new ideas. Someone who is disciplined in certain manner will always be resistant to change and without change there is no learning.

You need to understand during early day of Islam they were not just traders but they were travellers also and story tellers so they were bind enough to their fundamentals but also free enough to observe, think and to accept the world as it was. A rare combination

 

[Proud Thamizhan]

beautiful enlightening interview.
minds and open minds are what all societies need.
BUT even Prof.Kuru seems to be not open minded enough since his focus is all about "muslim mind" "muslim world" "muslim rise" and "muslim fall".
Thinkers and true researchers like him must lead others to the fact that there is no such thing as a muslim world or muslim mind.


Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high
Where knowledge is free
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments
By narrow domestic walls
Where words come out from the depth of truth
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way
Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit
Where the mind is led forward by thee
Into ever-widening thought and action
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.

 

[S.Y.A]

The main reason is that Muslims lost the freedom to interpret and say anything. Even Imam Ghazali said that learning Math is anti-Islam.

yeah, no he didnt say that. read the tahafut yourself. neil degrasse is an idiot who himself hasnt read the book. the book is only against specific beliefs of islamic philosophers which were in contradiction to islam, like the world has always existed. Imam ghazali argued that the world is not eternal but began at a fixed point in time. nothing against maths or science.

This is what he wrote in the introduction:

 

[S.Y.A]

Hence, Muslims literacy rate went low. It was 5% during the Ottoman era

what was it in india, during the mughals?

 

[ST1976]

what was it in india, during the mughals?

We know that only those converted to Islam during Mughal Rule, who were very poor and mostly from Dalit caste of Hindus.
Those who were not able to pay Jaziya Tax, those who looking for economic help from Mughal government in case of adopting Islam, were belonging to poorest Caste of Hindu community

 

[ST1976]

Hence, Muslims literacy rate went low. It was 5% during the Ottoman era. Therefore, Muslims in general were easy to subdue by fake government narratives/propaganda and sold bravado stories. Everything was blamed on foreigners.

Just see Pak or Iran example. We were never allowed to interpret and publish our history independently. Just before recently, we blamed everyone for our 71 disaster except the army, whereas it was solely responsible.

Our COAS can easily control 700k army because the personnel are made to follow orders of all kinds. Any progressive thought is rejected by the legacy, discipline, ethos and spirit of the army. @Fatman17

Not just during Mughal Rule but also in case of Ahmad Shah Abdhali Rule of Afghanistan's Rule, it was always hard to find those Muslims who were worth for education or Jaziya Tax.......
Only Hindus could be back boon of economy, it was understood

 

[S.Y.A]

We know that only those converted to Islam during Mughal Rule, who were very poor and mostly from Dalit caste of Hindus.
Those who were not able to pay Jaziya Tax, those who looking for economic help from Mughal government in case of adopting Islam, were belonging to poorest Caste of Hindu community

is that why muslims were among some of the largest landowners in india at the time of independence?

 

[Foinikas]

There are no white people on this forum

Do I count as white or is it a case of "Wait,they're not white,they're Italians?"

 

[Developereo]

Do I count as white or is it a case of "Wait,they're not white,they're Italians?"

LOL.

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[VCheng]

We cannot bypass the learning curve.

True that there are no bypasses to learning, but the pace of learning, i.e. the slope of said curve can always be improved. How to do so is the real question.

 

[Foinikas]

LOL.

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Steve Karamitsis,mate.

The weird thing is,there's Muslims who are trying to find their identity by becoming radicalized,their Muslims trying to be more open and then blamed of being Western slaves,there's Muslims who are trying to be both modern and traditional,but stuck in political games. All these are mostly policies of entire countries. It somehow seems that Muslims are having the toughest time moving forward,because for them it's either extremely conservative Islam or modernization. They can't find a solution,they can't find the perfect balance.

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

That's just over complicating things. Earlier Islam was dominated by Arabs and persians who focused on science and learning. Islamic civilization never recovered after the Mongol destruction and after that it was taken over by Turks in all important regions, from Subcontinent to Central Asia to Middle East, Eastern Europe and even parts of North Africa. Turks tended to focus on martial activities and shia/sunni divide exacerbated the situation starting in 15th century with a permanent deep schism right in the middle of the ummah which created opposite poles and opposing alliances often with non-muslim powers against fellow muslims. The muslim world remained fractured and was easily co-opted by the European colonial powers.

What islamic rise? Post industrial world was completely dominated by west. Before that muslims were not particularly anything special compared to others, especially the so called golden age of Islam is nothing special. Must of Islam expansion can be thanked to Turks converting.

Ancient Pakistanis also had golden age in Indus valley era and then vedic era when our ancestors discovered zero. This is where arabs and persian learned math.

Westerners toke all these eastern inventions and discoveries to help them in industrial revolution.