Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion

RescueRanger said:
They are trying really hard since last night - but so far daal nahi gal rahey India ki. This is why we cannot afford to be complacent. Both on the military front and readiness and the diplomatic front and as part of that in the infosphere where India's credibility has taken a bit of a beating lately.
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@Be dazzled
 
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Serendipity said:
While we have discussed platforms at length, in terms of military doctrine, it is worthwhile to look at decisions like restraint in light of declared strategies. I believe AVM Aurangzeb hinted at this himself.

India heavily invested in the cold start doctrine (https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/cold-start-hot-wars-indian-armys-new-limited-war-doctrine) and this dramatically challenges past inferences in the context of game theory. The one true unknown remains Pakistan's own nuclear threshold and this had to be kept hidden.

This is why India jumped directly to using Rafales and Brahmos from the outset of the escalation targeting civilian infrastructure (accused paramilitary) while Pakistan continued to climb the escalation ladder in a more conventional fashion. Their highest tech missiles were responded to with Pakistan's lowest tech weapons ( Fatah 1). There was clear signaling in this context as well as you will remember that Pakistan tested the Fatah system early in the war. Many people were puzzled as it seemed like a poor response to be testing your lower end systems in response to the enemy using advanced tech but it does make sense in this context.

The comparison is also relevant because you are comparing India's sharpest attack with Pakistan's bluntest attack. I also believe this is one of the reasons why Pakistan did not heavily attack Delhi (yet). This is also why the Indians kept saying the escalation decision is in Pakistan's hands.

Cold start has it's own major issues. They have advertised the operational and technical parameters of their most advanced systems to an enemy that clearly believes in full spectrum warfare and even now I am sure the IT teams in Pakistan, China and Turkey are working at a fevered pace to digest all the data related to India's most advanced systems devising electronic countermeasures. India , already lagging in this domain, will continue to lag as Pakistan did not bring out the big guns to further widen the EW supremacy gap. This is the new age military doctrine hinted at where synergistic tech becomes a bigger player than the quality and quantity of individual platforms.


What would have been the benefit of launching heavy attacks right off the bat? Psychological for sure, but I believe the unexpected psychological resilience of the Pakistani people through sarcasm and self deprecatory deflection really caught the Indian's off guard. There was the night of Psy Ops that their media must have envisioned as a master stroke that would lead to Pakistan's civilian population descending in to chaos and anarchy and it fell flatter than their bollywood war movies. Indeed, some of the videos shared by the military of farmers sitting next to Launch vehicles was subtle nod to this. This gave the military more time and I think the citizens themselves do not realize how much they helped.

The other major issue with cold start is that the more it is used , the more it loses it's edge. It turn in to a high low high situation , and most importantly it is horribly demoralizing for the armed forces when it does work. Imagine this: You are part of the Indian military. You are told that you have the worlds most advanced European Aircrafts, the most advanced Russian air defense system, some of the worlds fastest missile systems and you now have the cold start doctrine that will end Pakistan in 3 days ( echoes of these claims were heard in the Indian media doubling down on this) and the only thing that materializes from this is the undeniable value of the Brahmos system ( albeit, that Pakistan would chose the route of electronic jamming over classic AD was something they did not anticipate and will cause a fair bit of worry, especially since the potency of this defense will likely rise with data acquired from the skirmish). What do you think is running through the minds of their pilots and soldiers right now? That their prized assets were (probably) grounded to protect them from further humiliation, imagine what is going through the pilots on lesser machines like the Mig 29th. To shaheed our airmen they had to hit them on the ground.

One more hint from the presser is that Pakistan KNEW the airbases were going to be hit which is why AVM A+ said that we kept our assets in the air, better than letting them get hit on the ground. I think this was a key defensive decision people are not appreciating. Outcomes could have been much worst when our airbases were originally attacked if the density of on ground assets was higher.


Keeping all these things in mind, as much as restraint is being criticized, it has done one fundamental thing. In the context of game theory, Pakistan remains dominant on the escalation ladder and controls when the conflict will go nuclear. It has also come out of the fight on equal footing with showing its weakest cards while India showed it's most potent cards. The people may not see it, the world's militaries see it. The second thing is avoiding war remains a goal whether people like it or not, the fact that thousands are not dead in Pakistan right now is a product of this same restraint. If protecting civilians is the prime task, then restraint help achieve this task. Egos heal, dead bodies do not step back out of the grave- Ask the families of the brave men who lost their (worldly) lives in the conflict.

Part of the restrain narrative is fueled from urges arising from the internal political grievances. To be honest, if the Military is sincere to the country, they will address these grievances more aggressively now. India picked up on this and played the tune. Fool me once fool me twice kind of situation.

And all of these does not even begin to take in to account operational contexts of striking in a dynamic hot zone stretching across an entire border.

Anyhow, thought I would be the devils advocate on this one. There were costs associated with restraint as well no doubt. But you will never have a 100% win. Do you think God does not test your sincerity in the face of (worldly)loss? Uhud should well be a reminder. Do not get demoralized over minor pinches, this is a real world scenario. How do you know what to consider a minor pinch? Anything the enemy has to compensate for through media is a minor pinch. You have established media credibility as well. Let them show whatever pictures they like. We should mature to a point where we do not require being fed the same drivel to stand united.

Bottom line we went toe to toe with a thousand pound Gorilla and did not yield an inch, and the Gorilla is having to hide its bruises under its fur. We wear our bruises with pride- they show how much we can take and still not get ruffled or back down. Do not let the minutia distract you from the bigger picture.
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What many people have not realize India did employed it's cold start doctrine this time it used it heavy firepower with anticipation that Pakistan defence would not be able to match the firepower and they chose the high visibility and high impact targets during the first night which as per them had to demoralize the whole nation, movement of their army was the suppose to be second phase in which they had to captured 3-15 Kim of Pakistani territory at different sectors.

But coordinated response of Pakistan armed forces specially Air force, Artillery and Submarine force of Pakistan Navy did something which is beyond the expectations.

But again it is yet to be seen Deterrence is restored or not as India's future (re)action is not clear.
 
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Master Chief said:
Have you seen the way jahil Indian "protestors" are behaving after their declared act of war upon the mighty Hydaspes river, a region so well known to the ancient Greeks? There is something truly dysfunctional with them that all civilised nations seem to abhor.

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The rot in India started in the 90s. But I think southern Indians are considerably different from the northern Indians.

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"You know why the world hates India today. We are arrogant bullies. Look who we admire. Trump, Modi, Putin, Israel. Look who we mock. Palestinian babies, Ukrainian citizens, American immigrants. Indian Muslims. Kashmiris.We are not easy to like, especially as a community. And the best part, is we are arrogant WITHOUT any aukat. Gand mein dum nahi par hum kisi say kum nahi. We weren't like this. We had out flaws but we weren't hateful, and certainly not hateful of the weak, the powerless.This is new. This is that fake 4 trillion dollar arrogance. I would rather have my older, poorer India back. Not this Bharat."
 
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Bratva said:
F1 & 2 failed to create any visible damage to adampur base.
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visible damage
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How can you be 100% certain - you are buying the enemies propaganda over your own nation's narrative. Thank you for proving my point @Maarkhoor remember my DM :).

Chill rakho :)
 
Maarkhoor said:
Can I ask what you wants to prove by posting propaganda tweet by Modi?
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I think its to show the level this scum will go to - to pretend they were the victors? Look in the background. A plane that survived the onslaught. Anyone with half a brain knows this is complete manure bro.
 
RescueRanger said:
Look in the background... :ROFLMAO: I love it.
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Guess he needs his reading glasses to point out the obvious thing in the background :D

They are trying to bury their jet crashes by creating echo chambers like this which will amplify their propaganda and nullify Pakistan claims of damaging any visible asset.
 
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