PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[iblini]

It will have to a risk the PAF will have to take. This is why I advocate for the PAF to make sure 1/3 of the J-35A soon to be acquired are configured in an electronic attack variant, similar to the E/A-18 Growler. Some of these “E/A-35” can fly with the PAF air superiority J-35A, while others can fly alongside the AWACS in an electronic protection mission, using their high power Jammers to fry the electronic of attacking missiles.

I think what you mentioned a bit unrealistic for both PAF and IAF, people assume there will be an armed race in South Asia but certain steps and learning curve can not be bypassed, rushing will only makes thing worse.

 

[liuzhengdong]

Pakistan operated AMRAAM missiles in its F-16 and even operated PL-12 (SD-10) before the PL-15 so this is incorrect.

The PAF has a strong history of combat with USAF foundations, it's wrong to say that it was built by the Chinese. Even the Chinese learnt a lot from the PAF.

But one place where you're right is that in recent Shaheen exercises with the PLAAF, China taught a lot of good lessons to PAF, because China has been developing its air doctrine aggressively like a science, and this helped update PAFs doctrine in the modern age.

Your understanding is that medium-range missiles belong to BVR. My understanding is that long range missiles fall under BVR.
No one defined the 2019 air battle as BVR
Only after we have the PL-15 can we formulate a training outline and develop air tactics around this missile.

 

[iblini]

It will have to a risk the PAF will have to take. This is why I advocate for the PAF to make sure 1/3 of the J-35A soon to be acquired are configured in an electronic attack variant, similar to the E/A-18 Growler. Some of these “E/A-35” can fly with the PAF air superiority J-35A, while others can fly alongside the AWACS in an electronic protection mission, using their high power Jammers to fry the electronic of attacking missiles.

I think what you mentioned a bit unrealistic for both PAF and IAF, people assume there will be an armed race in South Asia but certain steps and learning curve can not be bypassed, rushing will only makes thing worse.

 

[FuturePAF]

I think what you mentioned a bit unrealistic for both PAF and IAF, people assume there will be an armed race in South Asia but certain steps and learning curve can not be bypassed, rushing will only makes thing worse.

The shift from 2019 to 2025 saw significant changes. Sure, it’s a learning curve and not a race, but key technologies have been shown to be pivotal for safe operations. Dominance of the electromagnetic spectrum, especially in one’s own air space is essential.

 

[liuzhengdong]

this is just false, Pakistan had BVR prior to PL-15 not only in the form of SD-10 but also AIM-120C before that. PAF's foundation and BVR training was done by USAF. Based on our greater combat experience and exposure to western exercises, we have provided invaluable feedback to China, both during exercises and for design and configuration of J-10CE and J-35 (FC-31 was initially rejected by PAF)

China on the other hand has reached parity with the US when it comes to 5th and 6th gen tech, so you could call China a 'master' in those fields.

My understanding is that SD-10 and AIM-120C can only be classified as medium-range missiles, which are still a bit far from BVR.

 

[airhead]

Guys: please post the rank and names and sqn affiliation of our heroes who shot the 6 planes. Looks like we have a few SJs in the waiting or maybe SBts at a min.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Guys: please post the rank and names and sqn affiliation of our heroes who shot the 6 planes. Looks like we have a few SJs in the waiting or maybe SBts at a min.

Unknown as of now. It is likely PAF will host an event explaining things in more detail soon, like they did with the 2019 operation.

 

[MastanKhan]

Very interesting that nations have switched from under-estimating the PAF to now analyzing the JF-17 and J-10 in detail. I wouldn’t say over-estimating the PAF, but acknowledging the PAF is implementing an innovative doctrine and needs to be noted.

Hi,

It will take the west a few days to admit freely that the pakistanis and the chinese had them litsening to their lullaby that put them to sleep---.

The surprise of the deal would be that possibly the swedes knew what the Paks were upto and they kept selling them the eireyes---peaceful that they might be---but who does not want their product to be the central piece of operation of that has spun the all the air forces around the world---.

So---kudos to the swedes---.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

It will take the west a few days to admit freely that the pakistanis and the chinese had them litsening to their lullaby that put them to sleep---.

The surprise of the deal would be that possibly the swedes knew what the Paks were upto and they kept selling them the eireyes---peaceful that they might be---but who does not want their product to be the central piece of operation of that has spun the all the air forces around the world---.

So---kudos to the swedes---.

Indeed the Swedes are the silent winners of this past week. So much so that I was watching a Peruvian channel discussing that they want to ditch acquiring the Rafale and go for the Gripen. Latin American channels asking if Indian generals are incompetent or if there is something else going on. Indonesians are already absorbing the pivotal importance of the AWACS. So many YouTubers are trying to breakdown the whole situation to find the key new techs and techniques. The PAF wrote a chapter in BVR combat this month, which the whole world has had to sit up and read.

Look at the presentation of Vice Air Chief Aurangzeb, I could not shake that the presentation looked very similar to the Swedish combat management software interface, the 9LV if I’m not mistaken.

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[Michael]

Can PAF link up to any PLAAF AWACS that could be / would be covering the entirety of IIOJK?

So long as protocols are compatible - architecture scalable - encryption robust - the sky is not the limit.

This story, for now, remains absolutely confidential information. There are many rumors, analyses, and explanations on the Internet, but no official information or relevant evidence.

Some say that Pakistan developed Link-17 completely independently. but with Pakistan's own technical and industrial capabilities, this is not realistic.
Some people say that Pakistan's Link-17 is based on the Chinese foreign trade version of the military data chain (DTS-03), which is the product of secondary development by Pakistan. But there is no credible evidence for this.

Perhaps the truth of the matter will come out many years later in the memoirs of some of the parties involved. Perhaps, the truth of the matter will never come to light.

But it does not matter.

Based on reality analysis. China fully masters the Link-17 data chain technology and possesses the relevant equipment. ------ The data chain modules of the weapons exported by China to Pakistan are made in China.

PLAAF can use Link-17 datalink to transmit information to PAF with the consent of both commanders.

With the acquisition of the J-35A and their WS-21 engines, the PAF should look to see how much of an effective gap there would be between the JF-17 with a WS-21 engine and the J-10CE in the PAF. If the JF-17 can be brought up to nearly the same capabilities as the J-10 in sensors and munitions, then acquisition of the J-10 could be stopped at 36, and a transition to the J-35 should. E done with full speed. The J-10 has limited growth potential, not just physically but also it seems there is limited to no desire to improve the plane within the PLAAF. The J-35, on the other hand seems to be platform the PLAN and possibly the PLAAF want to improve.

Therefore, and initial goal of the PAF to acquire the J-35A, IMHO should be for 36; 24 air superiority fighters and 12 J-35D fighters; electronic warfare fighters. These would be invaluable in the expected future electromagnetic environment across the international border and LOC, but especially in support of the Navy.

1, If PAF&PAC decides to change the JF-17's engine from RD-93 to WS-21, then it is not a simple act of changing the engine. It will be facing a major upgrade. Although these two engines have the same technical route, the application areas they target are fundamentally different.

2, JF-17 (WS-21 version) has no possibility to equal or exceed the J-10CE. WS-21 and WS-10B essentially belong to the same generation of engines (WS-21 has some WS-19 technology transfer, but has not changed the essence).

3, J-35A (WS-19 engine) is not an export version. The export version is the J-35 (WS-21 engine) air force version. PLA Navy is currently flying the J-35 shipboard version of the use of the WS-21 engine, the future will be replaced by the WS-19 engine.

4, fifth-generation fighters all have some electronic warfare capabilities, but they can't replace dedicated electronic warfare fighters like the J-15D/J-16D. When a dedicated electronic warfare fighter is at work, the enemy may not know precisely where it is, but it must know it is coming. This is in conflict with the stealth fighter's combat mission and mode of operation.

 

[FuturePAF]

PLAAF can use Link-17 datalink to transmit information to PAF with the consent of both commanders.

This is what matters.

As the PAF retires the Mirages and F-7PGs, only the F-16 and possibly the Erieyes will be the systems out of the loop. A data relay is probably used between these aircraft and the rest of the fleet.

 

[White Privilege]

Hi,

It will take the west a few days to admit freely that the pakistanis and the chinese had them litsening to their lullaby that put them to sleep---.

The surprise of the deal would be that possibly the swedes knew what the Paks were upto and they kept selling them the eireyes---peaceful that they might be---but who does not want their product to be the central piece of operation of that has spun the all the air forces around the world---.

So---kudos to the swedes---.

Surprise 2.0 from PAF. The other important thing is our 'soft kill' capability. Pakistan must also massively upgrade its jammer fleet. I believe our Jammers should be able to fry enemy combatants well beyond the range of our current and future missiles. Since PL-15 has debuted with the PAF, the next logical induction would be PL-17 and beyond for even longer kill capability....

 

[Michael]

As the PAF retires the Mirages and F-7PGs, only the F-16 and possibly the Erieyes will be the systems out of the loop. A data relay is probably used between these aircraft and the rest of the fleet.

I have always emphasized that what really played a key role in this Indo-Pak air war was the integrated air intelligence and command system behind it.

People usually grossly ignore the coordination and tactical setup between all the players of the entire team and focus only on the goal scorers.

The F-16 is globally recognized as an excellent fighter. But that excellence is based on the product of the times. This Indo-Pak air war has proved to the world that that traditional model of fighter air combat is outdated. In the future, it is bound to be the era of systematic air combat.

I agree that PAF should keep the F-16s for political purposes, but there is no need to spend more money to upgrade them (PAF has very limited funds). These F-16s don't fit fully into PAF's current integrated air intelligence and command coordination. They can only perform some independent day-to-day missions.
It's like this: a team that has a large number of first-rate players on its own, but which also has a second-rate foreign player who doesn't speak the language. Can you imagine how they directly could work seamlessly together?

 

[sutton9999]

How is Girpen any better? Anyone with common sense already knows the importance of AWACS. Both sides have AWCAS providing battlefield awareness. It is a misunderstanding that AWACS made a decisive difference that night.

 

[White Privilege]

How is Girpen any better? Anyone with common sense already knows the importance of AWACS. Both sides have AWCAS providing battlefield awareness. It is a misunderstanding that AWACS made a decisive difference that night.

Quality of radars and jammers, both ground based and airborne decide the robustness and quality of the kill/defense chain.