PL-15E and HQ-16FE improvements needed?

[hussain0216]

We can go for high end Chinese Or Turkish systems, both preferably

But for we need a cheaper homegrown solution, either the Faaz SAM option that's in the works

Or at least the ability to make Chinese or Turkish Sam's at home with ToT so we can stock up at a cheaper cost



But we need to be realistic, we are NEXT DOOR to our enemy and we are a big nation, so stopping everything is neither possible not feasible

So Pakistan needs to come up with other solutions, Including a devastating offensive punch so in response to attacks upon Pakistan we can rip open India's azz


And ways of maintaining attack with bases under attack

 

[FuturePAF]

PL-15E have gas rudder and HQ-16FE does have lateral thrusters. But both are not really designed for long range terminal lethality in mind, but rather increase interception envelope closer to the bottom left, when the missile have yet to accumulate enough velocity for aerodynamic control surfaces to generate enough control authority and direct thrust vectoring would be needed to supplement.

I think what you are referring to is how these missiles adopt a ballistic trajectory to achieve a greater Rmax, and you think these missiles require greater lethality against a maneuvering target. I think you have a slight misconception as of how can that be achieved. Missiles designed to intercept air breathing targets below 20000 meters (so most aircraft) does not require lateral thrusters like a KKV, for the air is still dense enough that airfoils, both fins and the body of the missile itself, can still generate sufficient moment to steer the missile. In this case what does increase a missile's terminal lethality is in most cases velocity.

We've already seen several measures taken to increase terminal velocity, from dual pulse rocket motor adopted by PL-15s, eliminating large fin surface like on HQ-16FE (this is a more peculiar case), and adopting air-breathing propulsion like the MBDA Meteor.

If you want to further increase their terminal lethality, making them more difficult to detect by enemy MAWS and RWR, thus cutting reaction window would be more effective -- and we probably already saw this at play. According to intercepted Rafale comms, the SPECTRA system combining RWR and MAWS did not detect the incoming PL-15E until impact, and the wreck of the PL-15E suggests it very much could possess LPI/LPD capability.

I would say PL-15E(assuming it got the dual pulse motor)/HQ-16FE are already at the forefront as being some of the most lethal anti-aircraft ordnance there is.

If fired ballistically to achieve Rmax, and the air breathing target deviates from the expected path, what recourse does the missile have?

If fired ballistically, wouldn’t the PL-15s flight profile match that of the Phoenix missile? Range out to 100 nautical miles (190 km) with the cruising phase at 24-30 km altitude?

Don’t missile fins start to lose their maneuverability above 20 km due to lower air density?

 

[FuturePAF]

Pl 15 does have a second thruster which fires up near the target, for chasing a maneuvering plane.

It in the mid course, if the aircraft diverts from its flight path, it’s likely to fly out of the envelope where it can be engaged best in the terminal phase.

 

[MastanKhan]

There is a need for an economical design as well as a small enough design to be fielded on all platforms and in large numbers. Along with extensive use of EW, these are likely to be the way to cover most assets, especially if mobility and dispersal are and important consideration, in the limited operating domain of Pakistan and its naval frontiers.

Hi,

Either you get the range or you get the economical design---.

 

[Dalit]

Best way to counter more Brahmos is to have our own rival missile with more range, speed and warhead. That's the only way. A 1000 Kilometer range hypersonic cruise missile is the capability which is required.

You have seen how the Americans have responded to Pakistan's desire to have more powerful and longer range missiles.

Absolutely should Pakistan have homegrown hypersonic missiles.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Best way to counter more Brahmos is to have our own rival missile with more range, speed and warhead. That's the only way. A 1000 Kilometer range hypersonic cruise missile is the capability which is required.

Hypersonic cruise missile technology is extremely difficult and expensive to develop. Only 3 countries in the world possess the tech. China, USA, Russia.

Right now Pakistan doesn't even have long-range supersonic cruise missiles. Which would be an equivalent to BrahMos. Even our tactical ballistic missiles are limited in capability/range.

Our missile arsenal is weak compared to what it should be, both conventionally and our strategic missiles.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Best way to counter more Brahmos is to have our own rival missile with more range, speed and warhead. That's the only way. A 1000 Kilometer range hypersonic cruise missile is the capability which is required.

What about the wide range of cruise and ballistic missile arsenal we already have. The so called tests they conduct every year.

 

[Aziqbal]

I really hope the Chinese satellites release the information about the Pakistan kills

it would be great for both nations

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

Either you get the range or you get the economical design---.

I would say we need a “few” hundred with the range and a few thousand with the economical but still potent capability in the mid-range (150-200 km) to deal with enemy munitions.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

You dont need more air defense system, they are very expensive, and air defense system are static, besides defend against ballastic missiles they are not that useful.Given your limited resources, you need more offence system, not defence system.

For instance, in your fleet, JF-17 is too light weighted to carray large strike weapons, whilst J-10C/F-16 are mostly for air-superiority role, you need some heavy fighter-bombers or attackers or at least some heavy UAVs to carry air-strike.

Basically after the first day, India give up the air space to you, resort to just UAVs and missiles, you lack the offence capability to take advantage of it.

You raise some valid points. I think this may have been one of the reasons for procuring the Bayraktar Akinci but even that really seems limited in payload for heavy strikes.

What realistic option does that leave for Pakistan, given economic constraints? Honestly I believe our domestic industry instead of aiming for big unrealistic ambitious projects like the PFX, should focus its limited resources on a heavy strike UCAV with perhaps stealth shaping. It could fill this niche.

@FuturePAF @Quwa

 

[Bentley777]

More batteries and new defense system more and PL15E iterations also which China is willing to offer more latest after this conflict in this particular domain should be inducted.

 

[Goenitz]

Pakistan should aim for PL-17 and HQ-19 instead of continuing to improve two decade-old missiles. There will always be new models of missiles, we just need to keep replacing them with new and better ones, there is no need to improve the obsolete models.

Can a KJ-500 launch PL-17 with some booster so that it can launch from a safer distance?

 

[FuturePAF]

You raise some valid points. I think this may have been one of the reasons for procuring the Bayraktar Akinci but even that really seems limited in payload for heavy strikes.

What realistic option does that leave for Pakistan, given economic constraints? Honestly I believe our domestic industry instead of aiming for big unrealistic ambitious projects like the PFX, should focus its limited resources on a heavy strike UCAV with perhaps stealth shaping. It could fill this niche.

@FuturePAF @Quwa

The PFX need not be a twin engine behemoth, but a successor to the and-17 and J-10. A backbone single engine fighter, with the WS-10B engine (or perhaps even a WS-15 export approved version eventually) but with shaping that improved its chances at survival.

Look at the FS2020 design from SAAB, built around a planned 190 kn engine.

But instead of aiming for extreme maneuverability, it’s improved electrical power and ability to carry the most modern munitions, along with a focus on EW, it can hope to form a robust backbone. Perhaps even for under $50 million a copy?

So for decent aircraft purpose built to deal with the Russians, the likely supplier of India’s 5th Gen fighter, look to SAAB and what they are working on.

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[guangdongt]

I am curious about the upcoming procurement of the J35 by Pakistan. The J35 is a fighter jet developed by China in the later stage, and at this point, China has been conducting experiments around drones and fighter jets. Perhaps the procurement of J35 is not simply a manned fighter jet, but a large-scale combat network system? Who knows Pakistan's thoughts? Pakistan's military weapons are mainly defensive in nature, and it may not necessarily change through this operation. In China, the J35 is not simply defensive in nature. Just take a look at the navy, where unmanned aerial vehicles are mounted on ships and the J35 is used in conjunction with systematic combat, integrating offense and defense.

 

[iblini]

Hypersonic cruise missile technology is extremely difficult and expensive to develop. Only 3 countries in the world possess the tech. China, USA, Russia.

Right now Pakistan doesn't even have long-range supersonic cruise missiles. Which would be an equivalent to BrahMos. Even our tactical ballistic missiles are limited in capability/range.

Our missile arsenal is weak compared to what it should be, both conventionally and our strategic missiles.

I am also a bit surprised about Pakistan's limitation in missile arsenal, Iran seems to be much ahead in this field compared with Pakistan.