JF-17 PFX program

[MS Sandhu]

IMO... Something like CATS Warrior is doable.

It's not a low-hanging fruit by any stretch, but the basic ingredients are all there if we invest in building them up.

HAL CATS Warrior - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

After AWC finish S-3
It's natural to go for CATS Warrior type of drones
GIDS had HALE drone in its Future Roadmap but they removed it.
Shahpar 4 may come with stealth design.

 

[Bilal]

The smaller aspect is required to saturate the rather impressive and effective ADGE east.
You're better off using ground based long range munitions to target the emitters as they pick up.
The electronic floor isnt the one faced by militaries in the vast pacific - it is rather noisy and suits smaller number of low observable platforms acting as "ninjas" while the rest basically create so much noise they cannot be "heard".

Just my impression. During Op Bunyanun Marsoos, they didn’t really carry out a full scale saturate, for instance, only 8 Fatah-1 launchers have been documented and each only firing a volley of 3 rockets at different times.

The LM were also used in limited numbers. So it’s seems neither full capacities nor the full capabilities of the employed systems was used.

It looks like it was more of an adversary capacity probing for a future need.

 

[Khan090]

My friend, your wishes go beyond some basic common sense.

You try to guess.
Why is it that the minimum configuration of all 5th-Gen fighters in service, under development, and in the pipeline around the world are two medium thrust engines? They are at least medium fighter class. (J-35 / KF-21 /AMCA)
Why is it that no country has proposed a 5th-Gen fighter program with a single medium thrust engine program (light fighter)?

------UCAV is not in that range.

Ever heard of F35 lightening II?
How many engines it has?
And Pakistan can't rely on costly imported jets to form its Air Force backbone.
As we inducted jf17 alongwith j10c for high low mix, so we will keep this pace for sure.

 

[Michael]

Ever heard of F35 lightening II?
How many engines it has?

You need to understand some basics first.

Single high thrust engine = medium fighter. F-35, J-10, F-16, etc, all fall into this category.
They are in the same category of medium fighters as fighters with two medium thrust engines.

A single medium thrust engine ------ light fighters
Two medium thrust engines ------ medium fighter
A single high thrust engine ------ medium fighter
Two large thrust engines ------ Heavy Fighter

Medium thrust engines: RD-33/93, WS19/21, F404, M88 ......
High thrust engines: AL-31, WS-10/15, F119, F135 ......

And Pakistan can't rely on costly imported jets to form its Air Force backbone.

I'm sorry, but it's true.
There is no possibility for Pakistan to build its own fighter jets completely independently. At least, you and I will not see any 100% independently built Pakistani fighter jet in our lifetimes.
Pakistan made most of the airframe parts of the JF-17. A few core parts are still supplied by CAC. It relies on imports for all its subsystems. In the future, we may see a JF-17 airframe made entirely by Pakistan. But in Pakistan's current situation, the subsystems are still dependent on imports. And it is these subsystems that are the core fighting force of the fighter.

 

[Khan090]

You need to understand some basics first.

Single high thrust engine = medium fighter. F-35, J-10, F-16, etc, all fall into this category.
They are in the same category of medium fighters as fighters with two medium thrust engines.

A single medium thrust engine ------ light fighters
Two medium thrust engines ------ medium fighter
A single high thrust engine ------ medium fighter
Two large thrust engines ------ Heavy Fighter

Medium thrust engines: RD-33/93, WS19/21, F404, M88 ......
High thrust engines: AL-31, WS-10/15, F119, F135 ......

I'm sorry, but it's true.
There is no possibility for Pakistan to build its own fighter jets completely independently. At least, you and I will not see any 100% independently built Pakistani fighter jet in our lifetimes.
Pakistan made most of the airframe parts of the JF-17. A few core parts are still supplied by CAC. It relies on imports for all its subsystems. In the future, we may see a JF-17 airframe made entirely by Pakistan. But in Pakistan's current situation, the subsystems are still dependent on imports. And it is these subsystems that are the core fighting force of the fighter.

When did I said 100% localization?
pfx will be a 5th gen jet (not coming any soon before 2035-2040).
This will probably use a chinese engine and some other chinese systems.
Will form future backbone as jf17 is for now.
J35 and kaan (Iqbal local name) will form the high-end fleet of PAF.
This may not be as stealth as j35 and kaan but will have many stealthy features for sure and its main role will be of an inceptor.
J35 and Kaan will be used for multirole/attack purposes.
Kaan and J35 will be F16 and J10Cs of Pakistan future fleet while pfx will be the substitute of Jf17 (massively deployable in large numbers) and pfx for sure get some chinese/turkish help.
And JF17-Pfx alpha will be a block 4 for testing Pakistan's local efforts in a practical manner with some enhancements over block 3 and j10c.
We are not going to buy 300-400 J35s or Kaans.
And we will never go with only 2 type jets in future at least 4-5 types will be enrolled.

 

[Michael]

When did I said 100% localization?
pfx will be a 5th gen jet (not coming any soon before 2035-2040).
This will probably use a chinese engine and some other chinese systems.
Will form future backbone as jf17 is for now.
J35 and kaan (Iqbal local name) will form the high-end fleet of PAF.
This may not be as stealth as j35 and kaan but will have many stealthy features for sure and its main role will be of an inceptor.
J35 and Kaan will be used for multirole/attack purposes.
Kaan and J35 will be F16 and J10Cs of Pakistan future fleet while pfx will be the substitute of Jf17 (massively deployable in large numbers) and pfx for sure get some chinese/turkish help.
And JF17-Pfx alpha will be a block 4 for testing Pakistan's local efforts in a practical manner with some enhancements over block 3 and j10c.
We are not going to buy 300-400 J35s or Kaans.
And we will never go with only 2 type jets in future at least 4-5 types will be enrolled.

Back to the original topic.

Why is it that no country has proposed a 5th-Gen fighter program with a single medium thrust engine program (light fighter)?

 

[Khan090]

Back to the original topic.

Why is it that no country has proposed a 5th-Gen fighter program with a single medium thrust engine program (light fighter)?

Every country has different priorities.
And you are right 5th gen jets can't be smaller and in lightweight category.
But a single engine jet with high cost-efficiency like jf17 is the need of Pakistan and will be fulfilled through pfx program.
But it will take time as we replace our jf17s with pfx beyond 2035-2040 era or even after some years beyond as India will still lack in next gen tech
They are now trying to go for their AMCA instead of buying F35 or su57.
AMCA will be Tejas 2.0 and my provide Pakistan air superiority over India in foreseeable future/

 

[Ali_Baba]

When did I said 100% localization?
pfx will be a 5th gen jet (not coming any soon before 2035-2040).

No it wont. It can't because Pakistan has no experience in designing any jet platform. Look at how many designs Turkey had to do before it could do Kaan. This makes no sense that a country can go from never having designed a single plane in Pakistan can somehow think it can do a 5th gen stealth platform on it 1st attempt.

If you told me that Pakistan was going to design a local replacement for Mushshak, or the K8, then i could get onboard with that as a first stepping stone, but not straight to a 5th Gen, "regardless" of priorities. The priorities cannot override practicalities that Pakistan faces!

This will probably use a chinese engine and some other chinese systems.
Will form future backbone as jf17 is for now.

The JF17 programme will end with more local avionics content and all airframe manufacturing. The JF17 platform will not move beyond it initial airframe design constraints.

 

[Toxic]

I think a localized JF-17 is worth pursuing even if it doesn't provide many new capabilities if we able to produce avionics and 100% of airframe here, They can be used for different projects such as a stealth UCAV program like the Kizelma.

 

[Khan090]

No it wont. It can't because Pakistan has no experience in designing any jet platform. Look at how many designs Turkey had to do before it could do Kaan. This makes no sense that a country can go from never having designed a single plane in Pakistan can somehow think it can do a 5th gen stealth platform on it 1st attempt.

If you told me that Pakistan was going to design a local replacement for Mushshak, or the K8, then i could get onboard with that as a first stepping stone, but not straight to a 5th Gen, "regardless" of priorities. The priorities cannot override practicalities that Pakistan faces!



The JF17 programme will end with more local avionics content and all airframe manufacturing. The JF17 platform will not move beyond it initial airframe design constraints.

if according to your perception pfx is a program to localize jf17 then what is pfx alpha?
As per PAF PFX and JF17-pfx alpha are both separate projects.
And for designing phase designing had started after 2019 I think.
And we will not design a plane from scratch but will use some existing design with some enhancements.
As per PAF official posters
Pakistan's indigenous subsystems are now being tested under jf17 block 3P banner.
Jf17-pfx alpha will showcase some design enhancements and after a long time will come pfx when we will retire and replace our existing jf17 fleet.
We have enough time.
On a lightly note, you always try to downplay Pakistan's capabilities and achievements but always failed but perhaps you have the ego and stubbornness of an Indian in your DNA.

 

[Ali_Baba]

if according to your perception pfx is a program to localize jf17 then what is pfx alpha?
As per PAF PFX and JF17-pfx alpha are both separate projects.

PAF has not been clear on what the PFX programme is, i don't think even they know. The multiple presentations to date are different for every iteration and leave what is PFX open to massive interpretation which is why people think it will be more or less that what it will be.

And for designing phase designing had started after 2019 I think.

And we will not design a plane from scratch but will use some existing design with some enhancements.
As per PAF official posters

Right, a JF17C with more localisation and avionics, possibly re-engined with a new Chinese engine.

Pakistan's indigenous subsystems are now being tested under jf17 block 3P banner.

Jf17-pfx alpha will showcase some design enhancements and after a long time will come pfx when we will retire and replace our existing jf17 fleet.
We have enough time.

Lets see - time will tell. As I say, I dont believe the PFX programme in any incarnation will any substantial airframe design changes beyond what we have now. Pakistan lacks the design skills and experience for jet airframe design, airframe validation, airframe wind testing.

The Super Hornet is the only example of trying to further build on an existing design, and by every metric it is basically a new design platform that only shares its "looks" with the Hornet. Not many other examples of using an existing platform to design a "new platform".

On a lightly note, you always try to downplay Pakistan's capabilities and achievements but always failed but perhaps you have the ego and stubbornness of an Indian in your DNA.

No - I am very realistic on what can be achieved on the basis of progressive efforts and achievements to date, as well as having the required infrastructure and people to pull off large complex projects. I have seen examples of peoples egos getting bigger than their capabilities to achieve(i.e. the the Tejas programme is an example of failure of hubris when you decide to do things backwards) and I recognise that same hubris in the PFX programme if it is what "you suggest it is".

 

[Khan090]

Right, a JF17C with more localisation and avionics, possibly re-engined with a new Chinese engine.

For this we have jf17-pfx alpha phase.

the the Tejas programme is an example of failure of hubris when you decide to do things backwards) and I recognise that same hubris in the PFX programme if it is what "you suggest it is".

No we are not Indian and Alhamdulillah we plan differently.
The whole pfx program is a multiphase program i.e. jf17 block 3P, jf17-pfx alpha and then comes PFX (final version).
Block 3P will do the things of localization of avionics and the chinese engines.
Pfx alpha will contain some design changes (not on a big scale but a few enhancements) and and Pakistan's designing efforts will trained in this phase.
Last will be PFX major modifications on an already existing design for example f35 etc.
But it will not necessarily all of its features as it will be a low-end and cost effective solution as is jf17 for now.
Remember that this is a project of far future.

 

[Indos]

I think it can be started from doing upgrade independently in Pakistan for JF17. As far as I know the upgrade always get done in China.

So Pakistan should develop the plane independently, next block development for example should be done by Pakistani Aerospace

 

[Michael]

Every country has different priorities.
And you are right 5th gen jets can't be smaller and in lightweight category.
But a single engine jet with high cost-efficiency like jf17 is the need of Pakistan and will be fulfilled through pfx program.
But it will take time as we replace our jf17s with pfx beyond 2035-2040 era or even after some years beyond as India will still lack in next gen tech
They are now trying to go for their AMCA instead of buying F35 or su57.
AMCA will be Tejas 2.0 and my provide Pakistan air superiority over India in foreseeable future/

Well, it does seem that you're not clear on the issues here.

Modern turbofan engines, in addition to propelling the entire airplane, convert some of that propulsion into electricity to power the avionics on the airplane.

In the early days, the avionics consumed very little electricity, so the engine converted very little of it. However, modern advanced fighters consume a lot of electricity, so more engine thrust is needed to be converted into electricity.

The conversion of turbofan engine thrust into electricity is dynamic.
For example, when the airborne radar is running at full power, the power consumption is at its maximum. At this time, if the total power output capacity of the turbofan engine reaches the upper limit, the thrust given to the fighter by the turbofan engine shrinks accordingly. That is to say, at this time, the fighter can not do high maneuvering and other large energy consumption action. On the contrary, when the fighter jet does high maneuver, the radar can not run at full power.
If the fighter can still achieve full power operation of the radar during high maneuvers, we call it a perfect match. However, the length of time the radar can operate at full power is still limited.

The RD-93 engine can only support the JF-17B1/B2 at maximum, and the JF-17B3 needs to do power distribution to operate normally. The JF-17B3 requires power distribution to operate properly, i.e., multiple avionics cannot be operated at the same time or, alternatively, some of the equipment needs to be operated at reduced power. This is the core reason why the JF-17B3 does not come with IRST.
WS-19/WS-21 can support JF-17B3.

However, if the JF-17 is upgraded to the avionics level of the 5th-Gen fighters, then, so far, no medium thrust engine can support it.

================

The F135 engine in the F-35 is actually an act of technical compromise, not an act of innovation.
The F135 engine is based on the F119 and increases engine thrust by increasing the culvert ratio. It is actually a balanced value between a military turbofan engine (small culvert ratio) and a civilian turbofan engine (large culvert ratio).
It gives a huge boost to the F-35. However, it has side effects that cause a lot of problems with the F-35.
For example:
The F-35 is very fat.
The F-35 has very poor high altitude performance and is slow. Maximum speed is only Mach 1.6 and it cannot cruise supersonically.

 

[Khan090]

Well, it does seem that you're not clear on the issues here.

Modern turbofan engines, in addition to propelling the entire airplane, convert some of that propulsion into electricity to power the avionics on the airplane.

In the early days, the avionics consumed very little electricity, so the engine converted very little of it. However, modern advanced fighters consume a lot of electricity, so more engine thrust is needed to be converted into electricity.

The conversion of turbofan engine thrust into electricity is dynamic.
For example, when the airborne radar is running at full power, the power consumption is at its maximum. At this time, if the total power output capacity of the turbofan engine reaches the upper limit, the thrust given to the fighter by the turbofan engine shrinks accordingly. That is to say, at this time, the fighter can not do high maneuvering and other large energy consumption action. On the contrary, when the fighter jet does high maneuver, the radar can not run at full power.
If the fighter can still achieve full power operation of the radar during high maneuvers, we call it a perfect match. However, the length of time the radar can operate at full power is still limited.

The RD-93 engine can only support the JF-17B1/B2 at maximum, and the JF-17B3 needs to do power distribution to operate normally. The JF-17B3 requires power distribution to operate properly, i.e., multiple avionics cannot be operated at the same time or, alternatively, some of the equipment needs to be operated at reduced power. This is the core reason why the JF-17B3 does not come with IRST.
WS-19/WS-21 can support JF-17B3.

However, if the JF-17 is upgraded to the avionics level of the 5th-Gen fighters, then, so far, no medium thrust engine can support it.

================

The F135 engine in the F-35 is actually an act of technical compromise, not an act of innovation.
The F135 engine is based on the F119 and increases engine thrust by increasing the culvert ratio. It is actually a balanced value between a military turbofan engine (small culvert ratio) and a civilian turbofan engine (large culvert ratio).
It gives a huge boost to the F-35. However, it has side effects that cause a lot of problems with the F-35.
For example:
The F-35 is very fat.
The F-35 has very poor high altitude performance and is slow. Maximum speed is only Mach 1.6 and it cannot cruise supersonically.

Agreed!
But our requirements are not of F35 type.
We just need a stealthy fighter jet to replace jf17 which already has limited radar range and sensors performance as compared to J10C and Rafales etc, but still proved its worth.
Pfx and Jf17-pfx alpha are different jets.
Pfx alpha jf17 is initial phase of pfx.