Pakistan has a Problem | Quwa Group - My Counter Thoughts

[Ak01]

"Roasted"

The maintenece hangers at 3 bases is "roasted"!? Runway being repaied within hours.

Are you on crack?

You just admitted your air force was too scared of the PAF, the next phase of this war would have been PAF hunting down everything that had a green uniform on in Northern India

Why are we hell bent on downplaying- genuinely?

Some of our deepest airbases were struck, an erieye was damaged, personnel were killed and runways had holes in them.

Why is this not alarming to you that we were not able to prevent this, but beyond this, why is it not alarming to you that we were not prepared for this?

If we had volleys of dozens of missiles per target inbound, the airbases would not be roast, theyd be cremated... Its this "meh, nothing happened" attitude that lead this to happen- its the same attitude thats carried on in the upper levels of the leadership. Even Indian CDS said we learnt and implemented, yet we want to bury our heads in the sand.

I want to say that missiles like BrahMos are not something rare. We have sold similar missiles to more than one country, but China's military sales are far less high-profile than India's. BrahMos was sold to the Philippines later than us and promoted to the whole world. I believe that Pakistan has been implementing a defense strategy for a long time, with insufficient preparation of air defense and offensive weapons. Danger always arises from inadequate preparation, and India will have to pay a higher price for its next attack. The gap between Pakistan and India is not so great as to be irreparable.

a gap of a few thousand missiles is not small!

 

[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

You don't stop a bullet!
Go back in time and people either shielded themselves from arrows or took out the archers.

Pakistan does not have a BrahMos problem... Pakistan has inadequate number of cogs in the wheel to identify origin pre launch and than if missed through the chain of AD, point defense.

Pakistan needs enough of a bubble to push the launches meaningfully away from the border and keep sites under meaningful surveillance. Preempt where possible, catch up where missed. Turks have Gokberk and Alka for point defense which can compliment CIWS. However no point defense is fully secure. There needs to be loitering drones for both electronic disruption or hard kills. That will only improve with meaningful input and provide better results overtime.

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

because this is indo pak and domestic opinions are more important than effectiveness/getting the job done.

Id actually argue India fulfilled its objectives- they wanted to strike "terror camps"- they succeeded. Objective met.

PAF DCA mission was successful- PAF objective met.

Indians launched strikes on bases and radars- objective was to show nothing is safe, id say this was achieved, atleast 18/20 drones were shot down, but id say, objective met considering GHQ was not far from where some drones landed, not airbases were safe. Success?

Bunyan Al Marsoos- satisfy the blood craving of local pop- i guess objective met? the PA put on a show to calm pakistanis down, was there any effect beyond making us feel like we won- no, not really.

"India go back with 6-0 including 3 rafale that will never fly again. 90% chance of S400 radar being taken out. And all they have to show is some damage on Airbase hangar that didnt prevent PAF aircrafts to take off."

unfortunately this isnt accurate at all, we literally resorted to photoshopped pics to try and prove an s400 hit. Not chinese, not western BDA proved a s400 hit and also, we;d have seen videos come out locally also from the hit. In terms of preventing PAF aircraft taking off- im a pilot myself, you bet im not taking off of a runway with a hole in it lol

Outside of sanghi echo chamber everyone knows those structures they hit were empty. They didn't kill any known UN designated terrorist. Objective failed.

IAF lost 6-0, grounded IAF for 2 days. Utterly humiliated.

Since IAF was grounded they tried to take revenge by hitting PAF aircrafts on ground. Objective failed.

Airbases have 3 runaways, they only hit 1. Didn't prevent aircrafts to take off.

They didn't fire brahmos to show off, they wanted some real damage on ground to take revenge of 6-0. Once they failed to do so and Pakistan would likely move on from Fatah rockets in next stage, they called USA for ceasefire. The END

There is 90% chance S400 radar was taken out but lets wait for some official confirmation or leaks from Russia/India.

 

[Ak01]

Outside of sanghi echo chamber everyone knows those structures they hit were empty. They didn't kill any known UN designated terrorist. Objective failed.

In their eyes, they needed to hit these sites, which they did, not sure how you can argue this...? Not sure how you can also argue our failure to defend these sites.

"Since IAF was grounded they tried to take revenge by hitting PAF aircrafts on ground. Objective failed."

This would be a significant escalation so i doubt it, but an erieye was hit.

"Airbases have 3 runaways, they only hit 1. Didn't prevent aircrafts to take off."
really? are we really playing the bury our head in the sand game?

"They didn't fire brahmos to show off, they wanted some real damage on ground to take revenge of 6-0. Once they failed to do so and Pakistan would likely move on from Fatah rockets in next stage, they called USA for ceasefire. The END"

They have thousands of BrahMos- they can fire dozens and it not matter. We fired fatah's Yihas etc and hit nothing, so what was that about? Was it to show off or was it they got taken out?

 

[falcon34]

Babur is subsonic.

BrahMos travels at Mach 3.

Babur carries a heavier payload, is stealthy, requires AWACS to detect, if launched in volume, coupled with F1,F2,F3&F4 and drones like Sarkash and blaze these Subsonic missiles can slice through indians defences undetected with heavier penetrating warheads, we can achieve barhamos effect at the fraction of the cost.
Even if just a volley of these subsonic missiles are fired 70-80% will still get through.
Can't be compared but both have their advantages.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Why are we hell bent on downplaying- genuinely?

Some of our deepest airbases were struck, an erieye was damaged, personnel were killed and runways had holes in them.

Why is this not alarming to you that we were not able to prevent this, but beyond this, why is it not alarming to you that we were not prepared for this?

If we had volleys of dozens of missiles per target inbound, the airbases would not be roast, theyd be cremated... Its this "meh, nothing happened" attitude that lead this to happen- its the same attitude thats carried on in the upper levels of the leadership. Even Indian CDS said we learnt and implemented, yet we want to bury our heads in the sand.

It's peak pathetic behaviour by some Pakistanis to try and downplay the BrahMos, or the potential scale of damage a large salvo attack of it could have caused. And none of them can even give a single logical argument, just stupid hubris similar to how superpower Indians Rafale will defeat J-10C because it's "Chinese".

Trying to downplay hits on your airbases as a coping mechanism is jeet behaviour.

It's same retarded stuff Indians do and then proceed to get humilated, these dudes are embarrassing themselves and not doing their country any good. You will notice every true power on Earth takes their opponents weapons seriously and even overestimates them to prepare, look at US or Israel how it raises alarms over the slightest thing. F-15 was born out of fearing the MiG-25 Foxbat.

Heck Israel even wrote a report on potential damage that can be sustained from Iranian missile salvo attacks, they didn't shrug it off despite even the US backing their complete air defence efforts.

 

[guangdongt]

Why are we hell bent on downplaying- genuinely?

Some of our deepest airbases were struck, an erieye was damaged, personnel were killed and runways had holes in them.

Why is this not alarming to you that we were not able to prevent this, but beyond this, why is it not alarming to you that we were not prepared for this?

If we had volleys of dozens of missiles per target inbound, the airbases would not be roast, theyd be cremated... Its this "meh, nothing happened" attitude that lead this to happen- its the same attitude thats carried on in the upper levels of the leadership. Even Indian CDS said we learnt and implemented, yet we want to bury our heads in the sand.

a gap of a few thousand missiles is not small!

There is a difference in the number of strikes, but the cost that the target can bear is even greater. In addition, you can consider what type of ammunition to install on the warhead. Can achieve more painful results. One side has hundreds of missiles, while the other side has thousands, but the former can also achieve a deterrent effect by saturating and killing the opponent's core city military bases. From the beginning, India's 72 fighter jets struck multiple civilian targets, which is a shameless and unlimited competition. Assuming that taking the initiative to attack again within 48 hours of gaining air superiority and achieving a deterrent effect, the outcome may be better. Of course, this is just a discussion among enthusiasts afterwards

 

[veeru]

unfortunately this is also cope-

IAF RoE would not have made them sitting ducks, simply because this was an IAF/PAF bout and they knew what was going to happen.

If it was the US id buy it, but i dont buy this claim that IAF RoE kept their hands tied.

Arsan,
the very tactics PAF used would not have been possible if India would have decided to do SEAD before going after those non-military sites.

The evidence is IAF did the exact same thing like using long range SoWs on May 10 hitting Paf bases, it was doing on May 10 with those non-military targets. Just see the difference between the Indian aircraft losses of those two days. 3/4 Vs 0.

 

[Zorawar Light Tank]

Outside of sanghi echo chamber everyone knows those structures they hit were empty. They didn't kill any known UN designated terrorist. Objective failed.

IAF lost 6-0, grounded IAF for 2 days. Utterly humiliated.

Since IAF was grounded they tried to take revenge by hitting PAF aircrafts on ground. Objective failed.

Airbases have 3 runaways, they only hit 1. Didn't prevent aircrafts to take off.

They didn't fire brahmos to show off, they wanted some real damage on ground to take revenge of 6-0. Once they failed to do so and Pakistan would likely move on from Fatah rockets in next stage, they called USA for ceasefire. The END

There is 90% chance S400 radar was taken out but lets wait for some official confirmation or leaks from Russia/India.

Pakistan was informed in advance about Operation Sindoor and was asked to evacuate civilians from all mosques and madrassas, leaving only the militants behind. However, instead of prioritizing civilian safety, Pakistan chose to evacuate individuals like Masood Azhar and Hafiz Saeed. If there are any civilian casualties, the responsibility lies solely with the Pakistani government.

objective of Operation Sindoor was to eliminate individuals like Masood Azhar, Hafiz Saeed, and their associates.

 

[Ak01]

Arsan,
the very tactics PAF used would not have been possible if India would have decided to do SEAD before going after those non-military sites.

The evidence is IAF did the exact same thing like using long range SoWs on May 10 hitting Paf bases, it was doing on May 10 with those non-military targets. Just see the difference between the Indian aircraft losses of those two days. 3/4 Vs 0.

Why wouldnt they? There was little to no AD activity on Day 1?

The IAF and both PAF rely on LR SOW's because neither can afford to lose a fighter as its a HUGE propaganda win.

The reality is, RoE in the subcontinent will not be this tight, simply due to the animosity- The IAF would have drooled at the thought of being able to kill a few PAF birds too, it would have really driven the point home. They knew the PAF would respond, they knew the PAF would be there- their job is to defend against attackers, the IAF was an attacker, so the two options are:
1- losses are normal and factored in, its expected and its nothing surprising. Perhaps just a lesson on humility above all else
2- the IAF leadership is possibly the most incompetent, moronic group of people to exist if they sent their men into battle to die. All of them should be fired and in a cell if they sent their men on a suicide mission with this breakdown in c&c.


i can tell you which option is the better and more logical one...

 

[Ak01]

It's peak pathetic behaviour by some Pakistanis to try and downplay the BrahMos, or the potential scale of damage a large salvo attack of it could have caused. And none of them can even give a single logical argument, just stupid hubris similar to how superpower Indians Rafale will defeat J-10C because it's "Chinese".

Trying to downplay hits on your airbases as a coping mechanism is jeet behaviour.

It's same retarded stuff Indians do and then proceed to get humilated, these dudes are embarrassing themselves and not doing their country any good. You will notice every true power on Earth takes their opponents weapons seriously and even overestimates them to prepare, look at US or Israel how it raises alarms over the slightest thing. F-15 was born out of fearing the MiG-25 Foxbat.

Heck Israel even wrote a report on potential damage that can be sustained from Iranian missile salvo attacks, they didn't shrug it off despite even the US backing their complete air defence efforts.

yes, its this sort of critical introspection is what is needed to prevent this from happening again, but instead we'd rather pretend things are ok and let this all reoccur.

 

[Zorawar Light Tank]

There is a difference in the number of strikes, but the cost that the target can bear is even greater. In addition, you can consider what type of ammunition to install on the warhead. Can achieve more painful results. One side has hundreds of missiles, while the other side has thousands, but the former can also achieve a deterrent effect by saturating and killing the opponent's core city military bases. From the beginning, India's 72 fighter jets struck multiple civilian targets, which is a shameless and unlimited competition. Assuming that taking the initiative to attack again within 48 hours of gaining air superiority and achieving a deterrent effect, the outcome may be better. Of course, this is just a discussion among enthusiasts afterwards

If a mosque serves solely as a place of worship, it is a civilian infrastructure. However, if that same mosque provides shelter to individuals like Masood Azhar, Hafiz Saeed, and other militants, it becomes a legitimate military target. Not to mention Markaz ShubanAllah was funded by Osama Bin Laden.

 

[Ak01]

Babur carries a heavier payload, is stealthy, requires AWACS to detect, if launched in volume, coupled with F1,F2,F3&F4 and drones like Sarkash and blaze these Subsonic missiles can slice through indians defences undetected with heavier penetrating warheads, we can achieve barhamos effect at the fraction of the cost.
Even if just a volley of these subsonic missiles are fired 70-80% will still get through.
Can't be compared but both have their advantages.

"if launched in volume"
we dont have volume!
"Sarkash and blaze"
These are concepts on paper that dont exist yet sadly

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Arsan,
the very tactics PAF used would not have been possible if India would have decided to do SEAD before going after those non-military sites.

The evidence is IAF did the exact same thing like using long range SoWs on May 10 hitting Paf bases, it was doing on May 10 with those non-military targets. Just see the difference between the Indian aircraft losses of those two days. 3/4 Vs 0.

This is the same type of retard cope like Pakistanis who pretend the BrahMos is a flying chicken that can do no damage.

1. Your airforce is pathetic if it can't carry out simple strikes against non-military targets near the border without doing a SEAD campaign even despite possessing SOW and other advanced tech.

2. Ground based air defence systems had little to do with your airforce humiliation anyway, it was airborne assets that simply outclassed your air force.

It's why you sat down for 2 days like little bitches silent on your losses and then went on a BrahMos firing spree, which was your only option at saving face. You are basically implying the Indian Air Force is incapable of carrying out any mission like a competent force the moment it faces any mild resistance by an opposing force. It's a more embarrassing excuse than admitting your failures.

 

[Ak01]

If a mosque serves solely as a place of worship, it is a civilian infrastructure. However, if that same mosque provides shelter to individuals like Masood Azhar, Hafiz Saeed, and other militants, it becomes a legitimate military target. Not to mention Markaz ShubanAllah was funded by Osama Bin Laden.

this is irrelevant, its like saying Modi's house is a legitimate target too because he massacred many in gujrat. Lets be real