Pakistan Missiles - Updates, News & Discussion

[falcon34]

Whatever happened to the P282? Some reports claimed it was just the internal name for SMASH, which is plausible since we saw a storage facility notification a while back but it was SMASH that was publicly revealed.

P282 is a long range anti ship ballistic missile. Possible a medium range HGV equipped MRBM. Naval chief himself confirmed it.
The system does exist, in due time it will be revealed.

 

[MS Sandhu]

I fear BMs are a great propaganda tool - propaganda for which a lot of our twitterati fell for. Remember the surreal videos of the Nevatim air base strike. But the strike achieve nothing of military value. That's the deal with conventional BMs

I fear we are drawing a wrong conclusion here simply because we are making judgements from a theatre completely different to that of India & Pakistan.
Israel is literally 2000km+ far from Iran. BM sure can't achieve pin point accuracy at that range but India is just right next door.
Most military targets will be within 500km combat radius.Pin Point Accuracy in this radius is achieve - able and if combined with Real Time surveillance assets, BMs can become deadly for Indo Pak theatre.
Even in this conflict, PAF employed CM400 akg for hitting S400 radar, to what effect, we don't know but that operational use shows there may be some solid reason to use a BM for quick target engagement.

There was a similar engagement between Patriot SAM and Iskandar where a drone spotted the S400 and there came an Iskandar to take it out.


So BM development for Conventional use should not be ignored simply because Iranian BM doctrine failed.That was a completely different theatre.

 

[headshot]

I think, one unsung aspect of Pakistan's BM program is that it's shifting towards 'agile' and 'responsive' systems.

There's an emphasis via Fatah, Abdali (new), SMASH and, later, the P282 to have BMs that can be produced more easily at scale, and deployed through a very wide range of platforms, be it land, sea, and even air (CM-400AKG and, just IMO, a local ALBM in the future).

It's possible that there's some commonality between designs like Fatah, SMASH, and Abdali (new) to further simplify the production process.

In this sense, I think hypersonics would come in as more of a future variant that will be the only BM type produced. So, once P282 comes online, then (IMO) there'd be a land-launched and possibly air-launched variant all produced on a common design, and it'd be the only one under production in its specific weight and range class.

There seems to be an improvement in the propulsion too when we compare the test videos of say Fatah 2 to tests from early 2010s and that seems consistent with a US report about Pakistan developing newer rocket motors.

Developments concerning Pakistan’s ballistic-missile programme

The US has assessed that Pakistan is developing larger rocket motors, potentially for a new long-range ballistic missile. Open-source evidence supports Washington’s assessment, although the purpose of this programme is unclear.

www.iiss.org

 

[Rational Philosopher]

This is the warhead design of the LRHW (long range hypersonic weapon) of the US Navy and US Army. The warhead is called C-HGB (common-hypersonic glide body)

To me I don't see how this is majorly different aerodynamically to the usual MaRV designs, or how it achieves a significantly different flight profile from it? I thought it would resemble a waverider wedge shape like the DF-17. But it's more conical with fins.

Is it possible that this follows the same concept as having its own propulsion source built in? @JamD @Quwa @FuturePAF

 

[Rational Philosopher]

The US Air Force's ARRW which is essentially an air-launched HGV from bombers uses a proper waverider wedge shape design compared to what the US Army & Navy opted for, weirdly enough.

 

[JamD]

This is the warhead design of the LRHW (long range hypersonic weapon) of the US Navy and US Army. The warhead is called C-HGB (common-hypersonic glide body)

To me I don't see how this is majorly different aerodynamically to the usual MaRV designs, or how it achieves a significantly different flight profile from it? I thought it would resemble a waverider wedge shape like the DF-17. But it's more conical with fins.

Is it possible that this follows the same concept as having its own propulsion source built in? @JamD @Quwa @FuturePAF

View attachment 131804

View attachment 131805

This is actually a great question that I wanted to address somewhere.

Punchline: What something looks like is a weak indicator of what trajectory it is following: glide or otherwise.

Reasoning: Look at this diagram:

Look how glide vehicles are shown above.

Yes, this is theoretical and for flat plates but roughly speaking it applies to warhead reentry too. The kind of trajectory that something follows can be abstracted to essentially the Lift to Drag Ratio (L/D), which varies with Mach Number. It is the L/D that decides what trajectory you will follow.

Another thing is that L/D becomes less and less shape dependent and more and more shockwave shape dependent as Mach number goes up. The shape of the shockwave depends on only a few design features of the vehicle and very strongly on its attitude (the angle it is making with the flow). Look how the glide vehicle area and the reentry vehicle (non glide) becomes closer at high Machs in the above diagram.

Final thing that I've hinted at is that L/D depends on the trajectory and the trajectory depends on the L/D. So this isn't a simple problem - you have to go back and forth.

All of this put together means this:
At reentry you are going at very high Mach numbers so you need to look the right hand-side of the above diagram.
You could launch a brick with an attitude control system towards the Earth and make it follow what you would call a glide trajectory.
You could also launch the X-15 and make its attitude be like so (square to the flow) that it acts like a brick falling through the atmosphere and burns up.


I hope that all of this helps clear your confusion.

@Quwa @arslank01

 

[JamD]

The US Air Force's ARRW which is essentially an air-launched HGV from bombers uses a proper waverider wedge shape design compared to what the US Army & Navy opted for, weirdly enough.

View attachment 131806

Wave-riding is a technique to generate additional lift - thereby increasing L/D - by producing shockwaves beneath the vehicle. Like I said in the above post, it is all about shockwaves at high speed and wave-riding is an attempt to explicitly shape the shockwave.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

This is actually a great question that I wanted to address somewhere.

Punchline: What something looks like is a weak indicator of what trajectory it is following: glide or otherwise.

Reasoning: Look at this diagram:
View attachment 131817
Look how glide vehicles are shown above.

Yes, this is theoretical and for flat plates but roughly speaking it applies to warhead reentry too. The kind of trajectory that something follows can be abstracted to essentially the Lift to Drag Ratio (L/D), which varies with Mach Number. It is the L/D that decides what trajectory you will follow.

Another thing is that L/D becomes less and less shape dependent and more and more shockwave shape dependent as Mach number goes up. The shape of the shockwave depends on only a few design features of the vehicle and very strongly on its attitude (the angle it is making with the flow). Look how the glide vehicle area and the reentry vehicle (non glide) becomes closer at high Machs in the above diagram.

Final thing that I've hinted at is that L/D depends on the trajectory and the trajectory depends on the L/D. So this isn't a simple problem - you have to go back and forth.

All of this put together means this:
At reentry you are going at very high Mach numbers so you need to look the right hand-side of the above diagram.
You could launch a brick with an attitude control system towards the Earth and make it follow what you would call a glide trajectory.
You could also launch the X-15 and make its attitude be like so (square to the flow) that it acts like a brick falling through the atmosphere and burns up.


I hope that all of this helps clear your confusion.

@Quwa @arslank01

Thanks for the detailed explanation

 

[Bentley777]

You really think there are fools in strategic corps. Shaheen series has PBV and MARV, which literally makes immune to almost all the ADs around the world and Ababeel is Shaheen 3 on steroids. As far as conventional missiles are concerned work is going in that field quite rapidly than India, we showed restraint but that doesn't mean we don't have the means to hit India hard with missiles everything is there.
And if there wasn't a distance of over a thousand KM involved, Israeli air force would have violated Iran like crazy, Iran's greatest defence is it's distance from Israel not those missiles.

Based on my information they are just checking parameters in every missile test no new upgradation of decades old missiles . Now even not doing that too no test took placed recently. They still have a chance even if they acted like fools till now to correct their course of action in 5 to 7 years we can be back on track in missile development. It's a hypersonic era show your one if you are capable other wise it didn't happened i donot believe in conspiracy theories like we have taimur icbm or any hypersonic missile . India is at least 10 years ahead in missile development againt us. India made brahmos many many years ago still we don't have its counter that far we are behind with india i would say even all nuclear powers have better missiles than us and upto date most surprisingly north Korea too they are outstanding .

 

[Watandar]

Based on my information they are just checking parameters in every missile test no new upgradation of decades old missiles . Now even not doing that too no test took placed recently. They still have a chance even if they acted like fools till now to correct their course of action in 5 to 7 years we can be back on track in missile development. It's a hypersonic era show your one if you are capable other wise it didn't happened i donot believe in conspiracy theories like we have taimur icbm or any hypersonic missile . India is at least 10 years ahead in missile development againt us. India made brahmos many many years ago still we don't have its counter that far we are behind with india i would say even all nuclear powers have better missiles than us and upto date most surprisingly north Korea too they are outstanding .

This makes sense to me. We would see frequent missile tests in the 2000 to 2010s but have not seen or heard anything about Pakistani missiles for over ten years now. Its like Pakistan has frozen its missile program in exchange for something else or under compulsion from IMF/World Bank.

 

[Quwa]

I fear we are drawing a wrong conclusion here simply because we are making judgements from a theatre completely different to that of India & Pakistan.
Israel is literally 2000km+ far from Iran. BM sure can't achieve pin point accuracy at that range but India is just right next door.
Most military targets will be within 500km combat radius.Pin Point Accuracy in this radius is achieve - able and if combined with Real Time surveillance assets, BMs can become deadly for Indo Pak theatre.
Even in this conflict, PAF employed CM400 akg for hitting S400 radar, to what effect, we don't know but that operational use shows there may be some solid reason to use a BM for quick target engagement.

There was a similar engagement between Patriot SAM and Iskandar where a drone spotted the S400 and there came an Iskandar to take it out.


So BM development for Conventional use should not be ignored simply because Iranian BM doctrine failed.That was a completely different theatre.

IMO it also depends on the BM. If the strategy is to rely purely on 2,000+ km BMs, then you'll eat a huge cost to building a sizable-enough BM force for conventional ops based on that design. This was Iran's challenge: What will it do if it runs out of those tier-one BMs?

If they had airpower, they could've greatly escalated the threat environment for Israel from a defensive standing, and then combine long-range BM strikes with stand-off range air strikes, maybe in a closely coordinated way to systematically neutralize Israel's air defence.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

This makes sense to me. We would see frequent missile tests in the 2000 to 2010s but have not seen or heard anything about Pakistani missiles for over ten years now. Its like Pakistan has frozen its missile program in exchange for something else or under compulsion from IMF/World Bank.

According to a report they have been building new testing infrastructure

Developments concerning Pakistan’s ballistic-missile programme

The US has assessed that Pakistan is developing larger rocket motors, potentially for a new long-range ballistic missile. Open-source evidence supports Washington’s assessment, although the purpose of this programme is unclear.

www.iiss.org

 

[falcon34]

Based on my information they are just checking parameters in every missile test no new upgradation of decades old missiles . Now even not doing that too no test took placed recently. They still have a chance even if they acted like fools till now to correct their course of action in 5 to 7 years we can be back on track in missile development. It's a hypersonic era show your one if you are capable other wise it didn't happened i donot believe in conspiracy theories like we have taimur icbm or any hypersonic missile . India is at least 10 years ahead in missile development againt us. India made brahmos many many years ago still we don't have its counter that far we are behind with india i would say even all nuclear powers have better missiles than us and upto date most surprisingly north Korea too they are outstanding .

Your info is wrong buddy, the entire Shaheen series has been upgraded with new miniature and Maneuverable RVs, deadly accurate, PBVs been added to provide Midcourse corrections and maneuverability, all this wasn't in shaheen 2. Ababeel is the result of all these upgrades over the years.
We are on the right track. Your just obsessed with SCM and hypersonics. Your forgetting the sorry state of our economy, we are utilizing the funds we have in the best manner possible.

 

[Dalit]

Your info is wrong buddy, the entire Shaheen series has been upgraded with new miniature and Maneuverable RVs, deadly accurate, PBVs been added to provide Midcourse corrections and maneuverability, all this wasn't in shaheen 2. Ababeel is the result of all these upgrades over the years.
We are on the right track. Your just obsessed with SCM and hypersonics. Your forgetting the sorry state of our economy, we are utilizing the funds we have in the best manner possible.

The Americans are extremely concerned with Ababeel.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Your info is wrong buddy, the entire Shaheen series has been upgraded with new miniature and Maneuverable RVs, deadly accurate, PBVs been added to provide Midcourse corrections and maneuverability, all this wasn't in shaheen 2. Ababeel is the result of all these upgrades over the years.
We are on the right track. Your just obsessed with SCM and hypersonics. Your forgetting the sorry state of our economy, we are utilizing the funds we have in the best manner possible.

- No evidence of MaRVs
- No evidence of 'deadly accurate'
- PBVs do not provide terminal maneuverability (it's a completely separate mechanism from MaRV, it works outside the atmosphere!)
- Pakistani missiles still use old steel heavy casing material, with inefficient solid rocket motors and large base fins, which modern missiles have advanced beyond.

A lot of what you are saying is just half made-up cope to feel better, no credible information to back it up.