Z-10 ME/P deliveries Updates: Pakistan Army Aviation.

How much life do the Cobras have left in them?
How many do we have left?
With careful maintenance and cannibalization of lower-life birds, a handful can be kept in service safely for at least a few more years, which is likely what will happen as they are shifted to COIN ops in the west as a short term measure before enough replacements are online and in service.​
 
Unfortunately for you Military grade tech does not scale that way, technology absolutely does, but not mainstream military tech, and given the acquisitions by both India and Pakistan, I think the leadership agrees.

As I mentioned before - in the military the first trial for any technology is logistics, everyone here, including you, is thinking about AI and UCAVs from a purely tech demonstrator perspective and giving examples of countries like Japan and South Korea with niche defense requirements and logistical capabilities that will allow for them to achieve this within the next decade (certainly not this one). None of this applies to Pakistan and our theatre at all.

Nobody is saying that UCAVs don’t have a place in the battlefield or that we shouldn’t be investing in them, if anything Pakistan has invested far more heavily in UCAVs and LMs than most peer militaries and you’ll see this in the coming years with the amount and type of platforms being inducted, but at the same time, the planners (thankfully) understand that no matter what social media shows, AI and automation is not ready to take over traditional combat roles in the south Asian theatre, not because we are limited by technological capabilities, I didn’t argue that at all, but because for the foreseeable future we are limited by logistical capabilities.

As a very small example - buying Z-10MEs to replace Cobras is a traditional military acquisition, and it will still come with massive logistical planning and execution to upgrade hangars, train pilots, maintenance crew, engineers, weapon techs etc etc etc.

Now imagine the requirements to shift this entire role from a manned gunship to a VTOL UCAV in our theatre, with our capabilities, our constraints (logistical and financial) and our doctrines (which have been in place and have been trained for 20 years) and then tell me wether you still think it is a worthwhile risk and investment to replace Manned gunships with UCAVs right now or anytime soon when a potential war over water is a high possibility within the next 5 years (as you say “near future”). Mind you an equivalent platform doesn’t even exist right now, it will have to be designed, tested and then be put on sale by an ally nation, and then we’ll have to test and evaluate it, and then we’ll have to buy it and implement it, if this takes till 2030, then what do we do till then?

There is a good border between using foreign conflicts and armies as examples to judge how our theatre will change, unfortunately everyone seems to be on the far side of the border where they consider that “because this is happening in X, Y and Z, it also applies to us”, it absolutely does to some extent, but not enough to risk it right now…it takes several years to plan and implement a major weapon acquisition and the required training and doctrinal changes with it, And we needed these gunships 10 years ago.

I agree - but I only disagreed with the line where you mentioned "cannot". It will happen in time for sure. Maybe not as of right now. Yes I completely agree that we needed those 10, 15 yrs ago. PA just has to create a balance where they can fill immediate gaps with legacy technologies (If absolutely required) but at same time that should not effect its ability to invest and focus on next gen tech and make all those logistics / technologies available. So IMO, have to do only limited investments in legacy tech.
 
And who will handle the production, cost and logistics of several thousand (non-reusable) LMs. How will you launch and store them? How will their range impact performance? How will they be moved to desired locations? How will they provide Continued CAS? And what will they do when most of them are inevitably taken out by advancements in Local jamming, APS systems and Advanced AAA and SHORADs?

Armchair experts deliver such sweeping statements about technology but always forget that the first trial of any technology is logistical feasibility.

You should have done some research yourself before writing so many questions. Pakistan has USED loitering munitions in a couple of large attacks already in the 5 day Pakistan - India war.
Meaning we know how to build them, store them, use them, etc, etc. That's about 90% of your questions. Pakistan is working on multiple loitering munitions related projects, GIDS builds locally, while we have other collaborations with China and Turkey. Lastly, an AH1Z costs around $ 30 million. A loitering munition costs around $ 2K ONLY.

So if you fired 1000 loitering munitions on an enemy armored colum, that's ONLY $ 2 million dollars! Imagine the capability. To do the same with heli's, you may have to send 10-20 heli's for the same amount of work risking 30 million * 10 (or 20) heli's = 300-600 Million dollars!


Here, a brief overview that I liked:

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I agree - but I only disagreed with the line where you mentioned "cannot". It will happen in time for sure. Maybe not as of right now. Yes I completely agree that we needed those 10, 15 yrs ago. PA just has to create a balance where they can fill immediate gaps with legacy technologies (If absolutely required) but at same time that should not effect its ability to invest and focus on next gen tech and make all those logistics / technologies available. So IMO, have to do only limited investments in legacy tech.
I address some of that in the follow up message - by cannot I don’t mean they never can, I’m a believer in automation and AI - just needed to add context to my statement.
 
You should have done some research yourself before writing so many questions. Pakistan has USED loitering munitions in a couple of large attacks already in the 5 day Pakistan - India war.
Meaning we know how to build them, store them, use them, etc, etc. That's about 90% of your questions. Pakistan is working on multiple loitering munitions related projects, GIDS builds locally, while we have other collaborations with China and Turkey. Lastly, an AH1Z costs around $ 30 million. A loitering munition costs around $ 2K ONLY.

So if you fired 1000 loitering munitions on an enemy armored colum, that's ONLY $ 2 million dollars! Imagine the capability. To do the same with heli's, you may have to send 10-20 heli's for the same amount of work risking 30 million * 10 (or 20) heli's = 300-600 Million dollars!


Here, a brief overview that I liked:

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

1. Pakistan used a few “LMs” once during the entire engagement - they performed horribly.
2. You did not really understand any of my questions, let alone answer them. Have you considered the financial, maintenance, training and logistical requirements to build a defensible, reliable, maintainable, cost effective and generally viable “1000-strong” LM launching system to take out multiple enemy armored advances?
3. Find me one good LM that costs 2000 USD. Even if one so cheap existed, did you consider the fact that Helicopters are…reusable? What kind of cost estimation is that?
4. So you think the only cost associated with an asset is the basic buying cost? Who pays for the entire training and infrastructure to build around it?
5. I’m not advocating against investments into drones and LMs, just trying to specify that they have their own place and cannot replace another link in the chain of combined arms.
 
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1. Pakistan used a few “LMs” once during the entire engagement - they performed horribly.
2. You did not really understand any of my questions, let alone answer them. Have you considered the financial, maintenance, training and logistical requirements to build a defensible, reliable, maintainable, cost effective and generally viable “1000-strong” LM launching system to take out multiple enemy armored advances?
3. Find me one good LM that costs 2000 USD. Even if one so cheap existed, did you consider the fact that Helicopters are…reusable? What kind of cost estimation is that?
4. So you think the only cost associated with an asset is the basic buying cost? Who pays for the entire training and infrastructure to build around it?
5. I’m not advocating against investments into drones and LMs, just trying to specify that they have their own place and cannot replace another link in the chain of combined arms.

First, show me PROOFS that Pakistan used LM's "once" and they performed "horribly". All other topics will be discussed after that. I'm waiting for this tall claims proofs.

Why do fanboys exist so much on this platform?
 
First, show me PROOFS that Pakistan used LM's "once" and they performed "horribly". All other topics will be discussed after that. I'm waiting for this tall claims proofs.

Why do fanboys exist so much on this platform?
It is not on me to show you “proofs” for what is well known and has been discussed multiple times on the forum already by several people - It is on you to do your research before you engage with someone else and act like you know what you’re talking about, Especially when you fail to answer any real question.

Are you sure you know whah the word fanboy means? - maybe research should start with a trip to the dictionary. Will not engage with you further, good day.
 
It is not on me to show you “proofs” for what is well known and has been discussed multiple times on the forum already by several people - It is on you to do your research before you engage with someone else and act like you know what you’re talking about, Especially when you fail to answer any real question.

Are you sure you know whah the word fanboy means? - maybe research should start with a trip to the dictionary. Will not engage with you further, good day.

When you make "tall claims", the burden of proof is on you. "My uncle east lunch with COAS" isn't a proof! Or, Pakistan used loitering munitions and they performed horribly, without published content or citing military sources, isn't valid.

When one doesn't have answers, he resorts to this type of behavior.
 
Cobras are surviving on ventilators.

But can they still fly????

Are the suitable for COIN, where even though they are half dead they can fly, fire a heavy cannon or fire a Bakthir shikan at a target supporting troops

Or they so dead now that, it's pointless flying them at all for any reason


I'm hoping their is enough life in them to support COIN in Balochistan and Waziristan


You can say what you want about helicopters, but their is a menacing authority when they turn up, so whilst the rule book is being rewritten for combat against another military,
I can see their purpose supporting troops against terrorists as long as they don't have any shoulder launched SAMs
 
But can they still fly????

Are the suitable for COIN, where even though they are half dead they can fly, fire a heavy cannon or fire a Bakthir shikan at a target supporting troops

Or they so dead now that, it's pointless flying them at all for any reason


I'm hoping their is enough life in them to support COIN in Balochistan and Waziristan


You can say what you want about helicopters, but their is a menacing authority when they turn up, so whilst the rule book is being rewritten for combat against another military,
I can see their purpose supporting troops against terrorists as long as they don't have any shoulder launched SAMs
They are like PAF's Mirages, with their commonality with the UH1 / Bell 212/214, they will go on living until the commercial market dries up.....
 

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