Bilal
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Who’s getting what? Very confusing.Also there is a solid fueled ramjet AAM program similar to meteor in Turkey called Gokhan. Is it also in this cooperation?
PAF Very Own A2A Missiles [WVR, BVR & ALCM Stand off] News, Updates & Discussions
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Who’s getting what? Very confusing.Also there is a solid fueled ramjet AAM program similar to meteor in Turkey called Gokhan. Is it also in this cooperation?
Windjammer
VIP Member
Quwa
Research Partner
Official Press Release:
Thus far, NASTP programs involved getting outside contractors to design an original solution that would be built in Pakistan. Baykar, for example, designed the KaGeM V3 miniature ALCM, YX-series loitering munition, and Python-series loitering munition, which PAC will build (?).
In this case, we may see TUBITAK-SAGE design a new AAM family (i.e., LRAAM, HOBS AAM, dual IR/RF AAM), for the PAF based on the GÖKTUĞ technology. Realistically, PAC would likely import the core inputs (e.g., dual-pulse motor engines) from Turkiye.
I imagine the NESCOM project (FAAZ) is far more ambitious in scope in that the goal is likely to develop dual-pulse motor engines and other subsystems in Pakistan. However, it will take a much longer time and, probably, several iterations before induction. So, until then, the PAF could be seeking Turkish help for a co-produced solution. @JamD
Both the commanders agreed to explore further avenues of bilateral cooperation, including collaboration for joint aerial exercises and training of Turkish Aircrew at PAF's Airpower Center of Excellence. They also agreed to elevate the existing partnership through Joint Working Groups focused on technology enhancement and core capability exchanges. The discussion also revolved around pursuing Air-to-Air Missile Technology exchange program to accrue maximum benefits for both Air Forces. In a bid to further consolidate the existing level of cooperation, both sides agreed to reinforce government-to-government, commercial-to-commercial, military-to-military and Air Force-to-Air Force collaboration. Deputy Chief of General Staff Turkish Armed Forces commended the professionalism of PAF and acknowledged its rising indigenous capacity in aviation industry.
It sounds like the PAF is trying to get Turkiye's technical support on its own AAM technology. I don't think this has much to do with FAAZ as that's likely a NESCOM program, but rather, this would probably be another NASTP initiative.Thus far, NASTP programs involved getting outside contractors to design an original solution that would be built in Pakistan. Baykar, for example, designed the KaGeM V3 miniature ALCM, YX-series loitering munition, and Python-series loitering munition, which PAC will build (?).
In this case, we may see TUBITAK-SAGE design a new AAM family (i.e., LRAAM, HOBS AAM, dual IR/RF AAM), for the PAF based on the GÖKTUĞ technology. Realistically, PAC would likely import the core inputs (e.g., dual-pulse motor engines) from Turkiye.
I imagine the NESCOM project (FAAZ) is far more ambitious in scope in that the goal is likely to develop dual-pulse motor engines and other subsystems in Pakistan. However, it will take a much longer time and, probably, several iterations before induction. So, until then, the PAF could be seeking Turkish help for a co-produced solution. @JamD
Bilal
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Doesn’t exchange mean two way traffic?
Hakikat ve Hikmet
VIP Member
My earlier educated guesses regarding a synergy b/w the Turkish and Pak military industrial complexes is proving to be right! I put down a couple of paragraphs in a thread in the previous PDF. The main points were regarding the leveraging the following:
- Talents, knowhow, experience etc. in Pak to expand the R&D, production etc. capabilities
- Pak's own need for all sorts of equipment
- The Pak-China relationship to overcome the Western sanctions on advanced ICs, precision machines for mass production, classified materials, test equipment etc.
Quwa
Research Partner
I don't think we have anything the Turks lack. It's the opposite. The net beneficiary will be our side, not the Turks. The only thing we may be able to give the Turks is data, i.e., we test their AAMs at our instrumentation range and deploy them operationally, and report back with our findings. It's what we have done for China for decades.
If the PAF wants to get a little wild, it might try buying the entire AAM stack from Turkiye -- i.e., tech transfer for the dual-pulse motor rocket tech, seeker tech, etc -- and continue evolving it here as an R&D partner. That'd be an expensive route, but definitely worth it as the fundamental tech (e.g., rockets) can feed into both AAM and SAM applications. And we have enough need for both across the Tri-Services to generate scale and distribute the overhead for decades.
I will literally put a photo of this CAS in my office if we get GÖKTUĞ tech transfer... I am so dead about this because it's what I had hoped for with the Denel Marlin almost 10 years ago. If we're doing this now (albeit via Turkiye), it'd be huge.
I will sweeten the deal: If we get 100% tech transfer for GÖKTUĞ, I will put this CAS photo alongside a portrait of Zarvan in my office.
Bilal
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
You mean the test range built by Havelsan
On a serious note, I was just pointing to the language used. That’s straight up l misreporting if it’s a one way affair.
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Don’t always assume that we have nothing to offer. There have been cases even the Chinese wanted what we had.
sorry- but its true, in this regard we have literally zero to offer- Faaz is reverse engineered SD-10 variants, Faaz-2 is a further development of, there is nothing we offer at the moment. If it was about 25 years ago we had serious work on imaging systems, could have possibly offered some help in terms of seeker tech.
Now, what were probably doing is just being a source of cash for these programs on top of that they already have, in exchange for tech transfer which will probably go to waste anyway.
alternatively- i can see this being another variant of Anka- where we will get some workshare to produce certain components on behalf of tubitak
Oscar
Moderator
Little to offer other than anecdotal inputs on performance of Chinese weapons in service.
Lower cost manpower perhaps but to what extent is also debatable.
Probably the highest value is operational knowledge and feedback.
This is a net gain for Pakistan in terms of knowledge mostly.
Quwa
Research Partner
Yep, but I think this may materialize into something more. There is a strategic need to own our munitions pool; we're either stuck buying 100s of missiles upfront that expire, or could deplete our stockpile very quickly without a way to replenish them. Getting tech transfer for AAMs and SAMs is a good idea. The high upfront cost can be distributed through a multi-decade serial production run involving thousands of missiles for each of the Tri-Services.
its genuinely a shame this wasnt done for CAMM-ER, the PN is going all in on it, the other two all in on HQ-16, there was a massive missed opportunity here.
RAMPAGE
Trusted Member
The Europeans are unlikely to share any technology with us. We are not an important customer.
