Z-10 ME/P deliveries Updates: Pakistan Army Aviation.

[Be dazzled]

Are you sure? Why prevent us getting T129 ATAKs?

Politics.

 

[Michael]

I watched the documentary about the development of the Z-10 helicopter. It was truly an arduous journey.

Due to poverty, backwardness, and a weak industrial foundation—compounded by Western technological blockades—China's military engineers overcame immense challenges. Every component, from the rotor blades and engines to the airframe materials and structural design, required painstaking research, countless experiments, and relentless breakthroughs.

Starting from scratch, they achieved full independent development, culminating in later export variants like the Z-10ME. While it may not be the best in the world, it stands as a crucial stepping stone toward the future.
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The biggest and central problem with the older version of the Z-10 was its underpowered engine. As for the other problems, they are just table talk.

With flying machines, power issues affect everything. When underpowered, you have to reduce the weight of the craft itself as much as possible. In the case of Thus, a lot of things must This creates a lot of additional problems. When the power is strong enough, many of the problems cease to be problems.

For the Pakistan Army right now, the Z-10ME is a no other way option. If they had any other choice, they still wouldn't choose the Z-10ME.
For China, it's just business. Nothing more.
=================================
PLAGF stopped procuring the Z-10 a long time ago. now the new production Z-10ME2 (PLAGF's self-use version) is also mainly used to replace and update the earlier Z-10/Z-19. it's total number of helicopters in service hasn't changed much. the helicopters that PLAGF has procured in additional numbers have been in the Z-20 family.

In PLAGF's current concept of operations, a helicopter gunship of the class of the Z-10 has been marginalized. It still has some use, but not much.

PLAGF is currently in the process of reforming the Army Air Corps. In the future, the Army Air Corps will no longer exist on its own; in its place will be the Air Assault Brigade. ------ You can think of it simply as a combination of the Land Air Corps and Special Forces.

Under this operational concept, the Z-10ME2 is hardly up to the tactical task in question. Concept of the helicopter. The future Z-21 is the perfect product of this operational concept. (The current Air Assault Brigade still utilizes the Z-10ME2/Z-20T for this purpose.)

 

[safriz]

What happened to Turkish Atak gunships?

 

[Be dazzled]

The biggest and central problem with the older version of the Z-10 was its underpowered engine. As for the other problems, they are just table talk.

With flying machines, power issues affect everything. When underpowered, you have to reduce the weight of the craft itself as much as possible. In the case of Thus, a lot of things must This creates a lot of additional problems. When the power is strong enough, many of the problems cease to be problems.

Several issues were found during trials. The platform was found lacking on numerous fronts. Less max ceiling, range, platform vibration and cabin noise, incapable of carrying 16 atgms like AH1Z due to less powerful powerpack. Insufficient and wanting self defense suite. Notice ME2 upgrades are based on PAs feedback step by step. The current MP version is a massive systems and performance upgrade on the previous version. Note that onboard FCS and avionics were acceptable from the start. There's some value addition to the overall package as well. Laser DIRCM and self defense suite is praised by PA.

 

[Michael]

Several issues were found during trials. The platform was found lacking on numerous fronts. Less max ceiling, range, platform vibration and cabin noise, incapable of carrying 16 atgms like AH1Z due to less powerful powerpack. Insufficient and wanting self defense suite. Notice ME2 upgrades are based on PAs feedback step by step. The current MP version is a massive systems and performance upgrade on the previous version. Note that onboard FCS and avionics were acceptable from the start. There's some value addition to the overall package as well. Laser DIRCM and self defense suite is praised by PA.

YES.
The problems you describe are all additional problems due to the lack of power in its engine. When the engine issues are resolved, they will no longer be an issue.

 

[hussain0216]

You don't kill cockroaches with missiles. These are top line heli's, their job is one. Establish deterrence in lower atmosphere, take out Indian armored columns as well as Indian air support in the shape of Apaches.

Because of Z-10's availability, now Cobras have freed up and allocated to the KPK and Baluchistan area, combined with Finnish heli's and MI's, they form a formidable destructive power against the terrorists. This mess will be cleaned up in a few weeks.

The problem isn't the amount of destruction the Pakistani military can inflict

The problem is the enemy in this case not uniformed and can run and hide and fit in with the local population

Terrorist one day, PTM activist the next day

But it's great the Cobras will have a end of life mission and before they are totally retired if they can be used against the terrorists especially during a attack, that would be a great asset

 

[Be dazzled]

YES.
The problems you describe are all additional problems due to the lack of power in its engine. When the engine issues are resolved, they will no longer be an issue.

How convenient. What a lackluster ecm suite has to do with powerpack? It doesn't draw power from the engine as it has own power supplies.

 

[RajaBaja]

The biggest and central problem with the older version of the Z-10 was its underpowered engine. As for the other problems, they are just table talk.

With flying machines, power issues affect everything. When underpowered, you have to reduce the weight of the craft itself as much as possible. In the case of Thus, a lot of things must This creates a lot of additional problems. When the power is strong enough, many of the problems cease to be problems.

For the Pakistan Army right now, the Z-10ME is a no other way option. If they had any other choice, they still wouldn't choose the Z-10ME.
For China, it's just business. Nothing more.
=================================
PLAGF stopped procuring the Z-10 a long time ago. now the new production Z-10ME2 (PLAGF's self-use version) is also mainly used to replace and update the earlier Z-10/Z-19. it's total number of helicopters in service hasn't changed much. the helicopters that PLAGF has procured in additional numbers have been in the Z-20 family.

In PLAGF's current concept of operations, a helicopter gunship of the class of the Z-10 has been marginalized. It still has some use, but not much.

PLAGF is currently in the process of reforming the Army Air Corps. In the future, the Army Air Corps will no longer exist on its own; in its place will be the Air Assault Brigade. ------ You can think of it simply as a combination of the Land Air Corps and Special Forces.

Under this operational concept, the Z-10ME2 is hardly up to the tactical task in question. Concept of the helicopter. The future Z-21 is the perfect product of this operational concept. (The current Air Assault Brigade still utilizes the Z-10ME2/Z-20T for this purpose.)

There is already a discussion on an upgraded engine plus some other upgrades.

I've said it before many times, Z-10ME/ME2, will NOT fit well into the Chinese operations theater. That combination is Z-20 for transport and Z-21 for attack helo.

However, the Z-10 will be further upgraded. One of the PA's main requirement was for it to carry 16 ATGM's. With engine upgrade it will be able to carry it. That's why I mentioned before, consider this project a JF-17 repeat.

 

[Michael]

How convenient. What a lackluster ecm suite has to do with powerpack? It doesn't draw power from the engine as it has own power supplies.

In our view, when a customer raises an issue, if the issue can be resolved quickly and relatively easily, then we don't see the issue as a “problem”.
Only problems that we cannot solve in a short period of time are considered to be real “problems”.

The ECM kits for helicopter gunships are add-ons. It depends on the needs of different armies. At the same time, it is not a weapon platform per se. If the Pakistan Army feels that the Z-10 ECM suite provided by China does not fulfill the requirement, it can use the relevant suite from other countries. For example, the JF-17 uses a Turkish targeting pod.

And the engine power issue is an issue that belongs to the helicopter platform itself.

 

[Toxic]

How many Z-10s can Pakistan buy? At most, 30 like the T129.
We can't upgrade the Z-10 just for such a small order.
The improvement of the Z-10 has always been centered around the needs of the Army Aviation, especially the needs of operations in Taiwan. ,
This is just a normal business transaction.If it could buy any other country's helicopter, it would not buy our Z-10

The Z-10 might not have been upgraded specifically for Pakistan but lot of the upgrades were based on results of Pakistani field trials, also attack helicopters are not a high priority where it would significantly reduce military capabilities if they are not immediately replaced, if the Z-10ME did not exist Pakistan would wait until Turkish engines for ATAK were available it would just mean the cobra's would have to chug on for a few more years.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Can't wait to see these helis officially introduced in Pakistan.

 

[RajaBaja]

Can't wait to see these helis officially introduced in Pakistan.

Could this be the 14th August air show surprise?

 

[ghazi52]

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[Harbyharb]

Since a lot of members have brought up the ATAK-2, what is the status of the project anyway?

I only recall that 1 bare bones prototype that left the ground exactly once in 2023, and was never heard from again, and a brief search a moment ago tells me that the turks are shelving it to prioritize on their Blackhawk knockoff, promising they will go back to the ATAK-2 after 2028. I wouldn’t be surprised since they have another Kaan situation, as the ATAK-2 depended on engines from Ukrainian firm Motor Sich, which practically no longer exists by now, which means no matter what, Pakistan will not be able formulate an actual battle-ready force around the ATAK-2 any time soon.

I cannot help but feel that some members on this forum have a strange… fixation on Turkish systems and equipments that went beyond reasonable pragmatic considerations for actual defense capability. Pakistan is a small country with a big, belligerent, and increasingly unstable neighbour, and I logically assume that any talk for Pakistan defense should be on a “able, ready, now” basis. But given the trend of “We got JF-17s, can we strap turkish avionics and missiles on them?” “We got Z-10MEs, can we strap L-UMTAS on them?” and so fourth, I believe there is a certain distracting mentality at play that I don’t quite grasp.

Can someone with more experience with this forum explain this mentality?

 

[RajaBaja]

Since a lot of members have brought up the ATAK-2, what is the status of the project anyway?

I only recall that 1 bare bones prototype that left the ground exactly once in 2023, and was never heard from again, and a brief search a moment ago tells me that the turks are shelving it to prioritize on their Blackhawk knockoff, promising they will go back to the ATAK-2 after 2028. I wouldn’t be surprised since they have another Kaan situation, as the ATAK-2 depended on engines from Ukrainian firm Motor Sich, which practically no longer exists by now, which means no matter what, Pakistan will not be able formulate an actual battle-ready force around the ATAK-2 any time soon.

I cannot help but feel that some members on this forum have a strange… fixation on Turkish systems and equipments that went beyond reasonable pragmatic considerations for actual defense capability. Pakistan is a small country with a big, belligerent, and increasingly unstable neighbour, and I logically assume that any talk for Pakistan defense should be on a “able, ready, now” basis. But given the trend of “We got JF-17s, can we strap turkish avionics and missiles on them?” “We got Z-10MEs, can we strap L-UMTAS on them?” and so fourth, I believe there is a certain distracting mentality at play that I don’t quite grasp.

Can someone with more experience with this forum explain this mentality?

I'm sure there are many seniors here who can comment. I can add my two pieces based on practicality.

Pakistan needed a working platform for attack choppers. Ideally, AH1Z, or ATAK were the pick. ATAK is still 2-3 years before a local / Ukrainian engine is properly tested and some units built. Z-10ME was heavily modernized based on our input from Zarb-e-Azb operations when we used it in live ops. But it needs a heavier engine still.

Having this said, currently, it is the most practical solution. Like the JF-17, we'll further evolve it with a higher powered engine. It gives us 8 ATGMs (vs 16 that we want), and rocket pods and a machine gun. So in the time of need, its a practical choice. China's needs will focus on Z-19 and Z-20 combo. The Z-10 platform might become very cost effective with TOT options in the future, or, for larger acquisition. The avionics and sensors are decent and will be further upgraded with the engines.

Good for a stop gap until we either modernize it to our specs and get more, or, get a heavier one like ATAK and keep some numbers of Z-10 as tier II.