JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[Yasser76]

MIG-29 upgrade was a failure. Think Indians were the only ones stupid enough to do it.

Other countries that could afford to got rid of MIG-29 years ago. Fighter is just not modern, even after upgrades.

Iraq, Poland and Malaysia got rid as soon as they had other options

 

[hyperman]

but we cannot sell it to them for many reasons

Why not?

 

[Yasser76]

Why not?

Saudi, Turkish and US pressure I imagine.

Quite a few Iraqi neighbours are allies of Pakistan. Helping IrAF JF-17s lock onto TuAF F-16s is not great for us

 

[RajaBaja]

End of Discussion.

If I want to do a sub 7 minutes lap around neurburgring and I have the cash I would definitely get a Porsche 911 GTRS.
Sure I can through money at an old E-46 and it'll be still cheaper than the GT3RS but it's not a GT3RS.

You are a rich man. You want to buy an S-500 as a high end weekend car. But for Monday to Friday, to work, to stores, etc, you still want to use a car that has tech features and capability similar to S class but cheaper, like self park, self drive, top end music system, etc.

So you buy Tesla's model X or Y or Lexus ES-350F. That's JF-17 for you. Gives you the feature capability of Gripen, Rafale, F-16V, yet has some constraints and cost much less to daily protect your airspace. You still get the AESA, PL-15 (above Meteor) but it's still Jf-17, somewhat under powered and less loadout.

During a conflict, you bring out your F-35 or F-15EX or J-10C and make a Hi-Lo combo with JF-17.

 

[hyperman]

Saudi, Turkish and US pressure I imagine.

Quite a few Iraqi neighbours are allies of Pakistan. Helping IrAF JF-17s lock onto TuAF F-16s is not great for us

nah thats not it, atleast not from the Turkish perspective. Iraq has F-16s already, i think the JF-17 order may have fallen apart b/c the Iraqis just bought the South Korean T-50/FA-50s. The JF-17 doesn't make sense when they have bought 34 F-16s and 24 T-50s. The High Low is already defined.

I think at this point if they do buy an additional platform it would be something that exceeds those platforms, something like the J-10C. The US sold them F-16s but no BVR missiles.

 

[SABRE]

missing the mark, the paf makes the same blunder. Mig 29 operators are key tgts

Many MiG-29 [and other Soviet jets] operators are not in the market for new fighter. Their air forces exist nominally only and they are happy with that. For instance, CARs continue to operate obsolete Soviet era jets, and even though they have good amount of funds to modernize their air forces - including for buying Western jets - most of them just don't bother with it. Some African nations feel the same. Aircraft like JF-17 are designed for war fighting, not keeping air forces afloat or exist as organizations only. Its market are states with volatile airspace. Those are hard to capture, especially with the Americans sweetening their pots and the French dancing around them like shady vendor hawking fake Rolexes in a back alley.

 

[Yasser76]

nah thats not it, atleast not from the Turkish perspective. Iraq has F-16s already, i think the JF-17 order may have fallen apart b/c the Iraqis just bought the South Korean T-50/FA-50s. The JF-17 doesn't make sense when they have bought 34 F-16s and 24 T-50s. The High Low is already defined.

I think at this point if they do buy an additional platform it would be something that exceeds those platforms, something like the J-10C. The US sold them F-16s but no BVR missiles.

Iraqi F-16s unable to fire AMRAAM.

Same reason Iraq is denied AEW too.

It is an unstated arms embargo on certain kit.

The F-50s will not come with any BVR either

 

[Ak01]

Politics has a lot to do with JF-17 sales.. For example the Iraqis really wanted this jet and were ahead of Azerbaijan in showing serious interest but we cannot sell it to them for many reasons

I actually believe a JF-17 deal was on the cards for Iraq.

As far as I know; there’s a pretty major arms deal in the works for Iraq from Pakistan.

Now if we think back to JF-17 and Rafale for Iraq, both deals were tied into a purchase of another specific piece of equipment.

The deals were always JF-17+XYZ package or Rafale+XYZ package, however, the deal that’s finalised with Iraq, it is for the “XYZ” aspect, so I have a sneaky suspicion that a JF-17 deal is being worked on or finalised, obviously they’re two different vendors so neither deal is announced together, but Iraq is contributing to some funds to the Pak aerospace industry.

Im being purposefully vague but you can figure out what the XYZ is I’m sure, but I won’t confirm or deny your guesses

 

[Ak01]

Many MiG-29 [and other Soviet jets] operators are not in the market for new fighter. Their air forces exist nominally only and they are happy with that. For instance, CARs continue to operate obsolete Soviet era jets, and even though they have good amount of funds to modernize their air forces - including for buying Western jets - most of them just don't bother with it. Some African nations feel the same. Aircraft like JF-17 are designed for war fighting, not keeping air forces afloat or exist as organizations only. Its market are states with volatile airspace. Those are hard to capture, especially with the Americans sweetening their pots and the French dancing around them like shady vendor hawking fake Rolexes in a back alley.

Not necessarily, fights are not necessarily fighter vs fighter(Althought the Mig-29/35 is very capable) but Systems vs Systems. An operator may choose to stay with a more familiar aircraft for example the AESA integrated Mig-35, which is not inferior in any way.



Evidently Indonesia and others.

The reason why I suggest Mig 29 operators is pretty straightforward, the most maintenance intensive bit will be the engine and they’ll have ample spares supplies and mro facilities.

Upgrading airframes, particularly at a time like this where support from the oem/traditional facilities is not guaranteed opens the market up to the JF-17 as the mig 29 upgrade.

The costs won’t be significantly worse, a deep upgrade will of course cost less than a jf-17, but you get a brand new airframe with 3+ years of OEM support. Alongside this, you get access to far better weapons suite etc, effectively it’s a pretty good value proposition for countries. It’s literally the mig 29 upgrade.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

Mig-35 checks all those boxes why would I want to be handicapped with a little jet which is almost there on paper. I have the money why I shouldn't buy
F-16 Blk 52 and above /Rafale/Eurofighter/Su-35/Mig-35
Now Rissians are testing AESA on Mig-29 too.
Pitch me JF-17 block 3

Who in the world is fool enough to buy Mig-35 or any Russian jet. Russian electronics, avionics / radars are generations behind Chinese now. Look at the condition of Russia now. Taking ages to build its own fighter aircrafts.

And if you have a lot of money to waste then for sure can go for those ridiculously expensive Western aircrafts. Rafale is considered one of best Western 4.5 gen jet and World already has witnessed the net result against Chinese platform and weapon systems which are shared by JF-17s.

We need to understand one core fact that Chinese had surpassed Russia now for quite a long time.

Why China’s Latest Jets Are Surpassing Russia’s Top Fighters

Since the consolidation of Communist party rule over mainland China in 1949, China’s military aviation sector has owed a tremendous debt to the Russian Bear. However, according to a new study, the apprentice may have surpassed the master as Chinese jets lead in radar, weapons and stealth technology.

www.forbes.com

Not necessarily, fights are not necessarily fighter vs fighter(Althought the Mig-29/35 is very capable) but Systems vs Systems. An operator may choose to stay with a more familiar aircraft for example the AESA integrated Mig-35, which is not inferior in any way.

Totally incorrect. Mig-29 will be shot down by JF-17 in 1 vs 1 every single time. JF-17 employs cuttting edge tech and mig-29s all versions with russian avionics is extremely inferior. Mig-29/35 cannot match chinese platforms EW and avionics. They are inferior a long way. period.

See an article by even western authors and that too 5 years old. You can imagine, how much difference is created by now.

Why China’s Latest Jets Are Surpassing Russia’s Top Fighters

Since the consolidation of Communist party rule over mainland China in 1949, China’s military aviation sector has owed a tremendous debt to the Russian Bear. However, according to a new study, the apprentice may have surpassed the master as Chinese jets lead in radar, weapons and stealth technology.

www.forbes.com

 

[Metal 0-1]

Mig-29M2 reportedly equipped with AESA

 

[RajaBaja]

Mig-29M2 reportedly equipped with AESA

This is like putting TESLA Model X tech into 2010 Corolla. We should tell them to pay some more money and buy the shinny block III of JF-17!

 

[Metal 0-1]

Rafale is considered one of best Western 4.5 gen jet and World already has witnessed the net result against Chinese platform and weapon systems which are shared by JF-17s.

First thing first J-10C wasn't alone involved in Rafale kill. It was a team effort. You are really undermining the roles of AWACS and other enablers.

J-10C vs Rafale 1V1 with no other enablers involved on both sides. My money's on Rafale.

Totally incorrect. Mig-29 will be shot down by JF-17 in 1 vs 1 every single time

I wouldn't go this far. But for arguments sake let's talk about it. What block of JF-17 are we talking about?
What variant of Mig-29/35 are we going to pitch against Jeff?

JF-17 Block II for sure skull **** older Mig-29 variants.

But Will struggle against Modernized Mig-29M2 and Mig-35(It's basically overhyped Mig-29).

So you need Block 3. Now it's a level game. Were talking about 1V1 here.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

Why not?

nah thats not it, atleast not from the Turkish perspective. Iraq has F-16s already, i think the JF-17 order may have fallen apart b/c the Iraqis just bought the South Korean T-50/FA-50s. The JF-17 doesn't make sense when they have bought 34 F-16s and 24 T-50s. The High Low is already defined.

LOL! You don't understand basic geopolitics ? How can a country that is ally of US can go freely and buy Chinese gear ??? IT makes ZERO sense. Military sales involves whole weight of nation's diplomacy, its alignment, its alliances. Its not a toy that you are going to buy... If China had an influence similar to of the US, there would have been 2 dozen countries lined up for buying JF-17s. From where else you can buy such lethality, combat proven PL-15 missile integrations and all that at such a brilliant costs.

As far as Iraq is concerned, what kind of agreements it has with the US. It was invaded by US and new IRaq is carved out by the US on its own rules / set. Their airforce is interested to buy JF-17s but simply they do not have independence to do so. They even want to ditch their F-16s in favor of JF-17s. It seems you don't read news ?? It was reported earlier as well because F-16 fleet is ridicuously expensive for them to operate without full independence and armament. You need to stop assuming fighter jet platforms as Toys. They are directly linked with influence, foreign policy.

JF-17 block III is for the entire spectrum of 2nd and 3rd world countries. Countries that have the money to create a hi-lo and want a credible higher end capability plane for their airforce's work-horse duties.

Mig-29 or Mig-35 operating cost is much higher. Even if they start to match JF-17's sensor capability. Availability rates are lower, like is the case with twin engine aircraft, especially Russian one's. Per hours costs are much more.

Nope. Its for any country, any country which can make an independent decision. Its not as expensive but as capable. (with even better and combat proven weapon systems). Also JF-17 deals costs billions of dollars, No third world country can afford block 3 variants. Don't even compare it with Russian junk of mig-29/35. Russian avionics is generations behind of Chinese. Same for missile systems. Modern missiles have AESA radars of their own like PL-15. The fact JF-17 can carry PL-15s and PL-10 HOBS make it so lethal at first place.

 

[SABRE]

The reason why I suggest Mig 29 operators is pretty straightforward, the most maintenance intensive bit will be the engine and they’ll have ample spares supplies and mro facilities.

Upgrading airframes, particularly at a time like this where support from the oem/traditional facilities is not guaranteed opens the market up to the JF-17 as the mig 29 upgrade.

The costs won’t be significantly worse, a deep upgrade will of course cost less than a jf-17, but you get a brand new airframe with 3+ years of OEM support. Alongside this, you get access to far better weapons suite etc, effectively it’s a pretty good value proposition for countries. It’s literally the mig 29 upgrade.

I agree with you.

The issue, as I see it, lies in marketing. It's not just about promoting your product—it's about persuading others they actually need or want it. These MiG-29 countries need to convinced they need to replace their jets and JF-17 is a cost effective and reliable option. They need to be convinced that they need to close the deal ASAP. Otherwise, one cannot gate keep for a longtime and other sellers will barge in. This is where we have failed and at times have AVIC step in.