Pakistan Missiles - Updates, News & Discussion

[falcon34]

Again subsonic waste of money. ***** will chest thumb again stopping this average missile. SPD should have self assessment if they cant make a supersonic cruise missile when enemy and world is on hypersonic they should resign new people should come In SPD enough of it huge disappointment seeing F4.

Nikal wa, fing clown who doesn't jack shit, what they are doing is exactly what's needed. Why don't you check how much is ur defense budget.

 

[Metal 0-1]

In my personal opinion, the time for subsonic missiles is gone. These have limited use. AD systems can now take out 90% of these

JASSM, Storm Shadow/SCALP-EG, LRSSASM, Tomahawk, KH-101, Kalibr to name a few are all subsonic. Even then they have been used and are being used to great effect in active conflicts.

In Russian-Ukraine war most of the sustained bombardment campaigns, especially the ones hitting energy infrastructure—have been carried out with subsonic Kalibr and Kh-101 missiles, because Russia can produce and launch them in larger numbers compared to the more resource-intensive supersonic systems.

 

[TopGun786]

Apparently, the FATAH-4 was also displayed outside Jinnah Stadium. This would mark the first time the system has been unveiled to the public (it had been previously acknowledged to be in development). Interestingly, it bears a striking resemblance to the Harbah-NG, a subsonic, sea-skimming cruise missile.

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[falcon34]

In my personal opinion, the time for subsonic missiles is gone. These have limited use. AD systems can now take out 90% of these.

Subsonics are still relevant and will remain relevant for future.
They provide same precision strike capabilities as that of SCM but just at the fraction of the cost. Barhamos cost around 3-6 million our subsonic ones don't even cost half a million, it will at max cost around $100k-$400k given it's an completely indigenous solution unlike barhamos even if we are importing engine from it wouldn't the missile wouldn't more than $400k, the only thing we will be paying dollars for is the engine which by all indications seems to be indigenous now too.
We can fire more than 10 F4s at the cost of 1 barhamos. Now throw in the mix loitering munitions like blaze Sarkash, F3 and F4 we would be easily saturating and rendering Indian IADs inoperable in no time during conflict, we will have volume and stealth on our side, that's a reason why Americans still use tomahawks. It's a cost effective solution.
And as far as F4 is concerned there will be BM version of it albeit a longer range expect a modified version of Shaheen 2 with reduced payload and it's dia.
They mentioned East, your not hitting anything in the east with F4 CM. For PA it will always be BMs and subsonic CM. Both are mature systems no need to get into SCMs and HCMs, HGV and MIRV capabilities should worked upon only. And stop obsessing over SCMs they got shredded by PA.

 

[RajaBaja]

JASSM, Storm Shadow/SCALP-EG, LRSSASM, Tomahawk, KH-101, Kalibr to name a few are all subsonic. Even then they have been used and are being used to great effect in active conflicts.

In Russian-Ukraine war most of the sustained bombardment campaigns, especially the ones hitting energy infrastructure—have been carried out with subsonic Kalibr and Kh-101 missiles, because Russia can produce and launch them in larger numbers compared to the more resource-intensive supersonic systems.

Actually that's not the case. Just 2/3 years ago, there was a time when over 80% to 90% Russian attacks were taken out by AD. It got to a point where they had to use cheap transistor decoys used in Radios worth like 2 dollars per transistor, in KH-101. So it would emit multiple frequencies confusing AD radar due to fusion of frequencies.

The Ukranians showed it to the Americans when one KH-101 was shot down with top area intact with these electronics. The Russians used Kinzhal's and Onyx missiles also to test their package parameters and eventually created a mix of weapons for strike.

Since then, there is always a package, nearly 100-300 objects in each wave. Wave 1: drones, it keeps the AD processing unit busy tracking these objects from inside the Russian territory. Then subsonic and supersonic missiles. AD gets overwhelmed and 25% object hit their targets. If you read my previous posts, that's the same % I'm using for Brahmos success.

The main question for us is, Russia is a weapons manufacturing nation, we can't compete with them. Do we have the capacity to get into a long term war and generate 100 to 300 objects once or twice a day? So based on our answers, we need to get to work and prepare urgently.

 

[El Sidd]

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Is this related to Mr. Sharif's revelation of reverse engineered Tomahawk steak?

 

[the vicious kind]

Unfortunately mods have deleted my message but I will reiterate that a Mach 0.7 cruise missile is not the answer to a Mach 3 supersonic cruise missile

There is a unique special penetration ability in the latter and hence more reliable for high value protected targets

Here we go again , Who says Fateh-4 is the answer to Brahmos? and to other people who say subsonic cruise missles are irrelavent.

Subsonic cruise missiles aren’t “outdated” they’re workhorses. If they were irrelevant, why are major militaries still buying and firing them nonstop? Russia leans on Kh101 and Kalibr for long range strikes, it’s their go-to air and sea combo.

The US just funded more Block V Tomahawks and allies are lining up, Japan signed for around 400. Poland is purchasing hundreds of JASSM-ER, also subsonic, to bulk up standoff reach.

Supersonic missiles like Brahmos, P-800, Yj-12 , CJ-100 have their own drawbacks. They are much easier to track due to the larger heat and radar signature. They are not agile and have a huge turn radius. They are significantly more expensive, often costing more than conventional ballistic missiles like HIMARS rockets, Iskander, or Fateh 2. Because of that, you cannot realistically use a supersonic missile for every high value target, they are best reserved for specific high priority strikes where speed outweighs cost.

 

[Pradotlc]

Apparently, the FATAH-4 was also displayed outside Jinnah Stadium. This would mark the first time the system has been unveiled to the public (it had been previously acknowledged to be in development). Interestingly, it bears a striking resemblance to the Harbah-NG, a subsonic, sea-skimming cruise missile.

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visting india soon

 

[hussain0216]

You are making the same point I've made since 2019 watching Brahmos development. Pakistan needed an equally fast missile if not better towards Hypersonic. High velocity has it's own capability.

Smash looked promising but it's not in bulk use yet. I knew before 2020, they will make Brahmos their first strike weapon and it's speed will create issues. So we need high-machs or hypersonic standard attack missile for all 3 services.

In my personal opinion, the time for subsonic missiles is gone. These have limited use. AD systems can now take out 90% of these.

Then why don't the Russians Oniks above and beyond Kalibur it any other Russian missile?

What do the Americans and Russians know that the indians do not?

 

[Reichmarshal]

Actually that's not the case. Just 2/3 years ago, there was a time when over 80% to 90% Russian attacks were taken out by AD. It got to a point where they had to use cheap transistor decoys used in Radios worth like 2 dollars per transistor, in KH-101. So it would emit multiple frequencies confusing AD radar due to fusion of frequencies.

The Ukranians showed it to the Americans when one KH-101 was shot down with top area intact with these electronics. The Russians used Kinzhal's and Onyx missiles also to test their package parameters and eventually created a mix of weapons for strike.

Since then, there is always a package, nearly 100-300 objects in each wave. Wave 1: drones, it keeps the AD processing unit busy tracking the objects from inside the Russian territory. Then subsonic and supersonic missiles. AD gets overwhelmed and 25% object hit their targets. If you read my previous posts, that's the same % I'm using for Brahmos success.

The main question for us is, Russia is a weapons manufacturing nation, we can't compete with them. Do we have the capacity to get into a long term war and generate 100 to 300 objects once or twice a day? So based on our answers, we need to get to work and prepare urgently.

Not 25%..........10% -15% of the projectiles reach their objectives even less.
The attack that Russia carried out right after its strategic bombers in the rare were hit by Ukraine using drones is a good eg.
Russia used every thing in its conventional arsanal in that attack.
But less then 10% hit the target, the rest was intercepted by the AD.

 

[Windjammer]

 

[abdulbarijan]

Can subsonic missiles do the job ? Maybe. In saturated attack.

But can it be an answer to brahmos ? 3-5 mach missile ? No.

Lemme phrase it this way. It depends on what you mean by "answer".

-If what you mean by "answer" is a similar missile with high supersonic speed then ofcourse I agree, its not an answer under said POV.
Just a little reflection, back in the day, people were saying the same thing about F-16 block 52 not being an "answer" to the SU-30MKI, and we all know how 2019 went. It's never one weapon vs another, but a holistic system versus the other, as seen this time around as well.

-Like I said, Pakistan just demonstrated with F-1/F-2 that it can effectively saturate India's AD, where they themselves admitted to have been struck at 26 locations. Add a terrain hugging missile to the mix of this already complicated environment with EW/Jamming, loitering munitions, cost effective rockets that can be spent En-Masse and few terrain hugging missiles being slipped in, all this in an environment where its neighbors sharing a border with nothing in between i.e. extremely small reaction time.

-Even if you think, its not an "answer" it further escalates the issues for the IA that was just facing rockets the previous time around and struggled, and now will have to contend with cruise missiles as well.

 

[the vicious kind]

Actually that's not the case. Just 2/3 years ago, there was a time when over 80% to 90% Russian attacks were taken out by AD. It got to a point where they had to use cheap transistor decoys used in Radios worth like 2 dollars per transistor, in KH-101. So it would emit multiple frequencies confusing AD radar due to fusion of frequencies.

The Ukranians showed it to the Americans when one KH-101 was shot down with top area intact with these electronics. The Russians used Kinzhal's and Onyx missiles also to test their package parameters and eventually created a mix of weapons for strike.

Since then, there is always a package, nearly 100-300 objects in each wave. Wave 1: drones, it keeps the AD processing unit busy tracking these objects from inside the Russian territory. Then subsonic and supersonic missiles. AD gets overwhelmed and 25% object hit their targets. If you read my previous posts, that's the same % I'm using for Brahmos success.

The main question for us is, Russia is a weapons manufacturing nation, we can't compete with them. Do we have the capacity to get into a long term war and generate 100 to 300 objects once or twice a day? So based on our answers, we need to get to work and prepare urgently.

Out of the 63 Kinzhals fired by Russia, over 25 were intercepted by Ukrainian air defense. The Kinzhal, is far more advanced and faster than any operational BrahMos variant, it was meant to be Russia’s “silver bullet.” Yet, as I’ve said before, such missiles come with their own drawbacks.

If there’s one lesson to take from missile strikes in the Ukrainian conflict, it’s that ballistic missiles tend to have a higher chance of hitting high-value targets (HVTs). Around 1,300 Iskanders were launched, with only a little over 60 intercepted — roughly a 4.3% interception rate.

On the other side, Ukraine effectively used HIMARS and ATACMS to destroy S-400s, S-300s, and multiple other HVTs deep inside Russian territory.

Therefore, Pakistan’s strategy of maintaining a separate line of conventional, non-strategic ballistic rockets , such as the Fatah-1 and Fatah-2 , is rooted in ground realities.

 

[kambhakt]

It does not have to be.

If we have mass numbers of this we can overwhelm their defences

At 0.7 Mach and range of 750Km, it will need around 50 minutes to get to its target.

 

[Yasser76]

At 0.7 Mach and range of 750Km, it will need around 50 minutes to get to its target.

Yeah and if there is 50 of them heading towards say Pathenkot or Udampur, that gives you less then 10 mins to take them all out