Pakistan Missiles - Updates, News & Discussion

[Corax]

Out of the 63 Kinzhals fired by Russia, over 25 were intercepted by Ukrainian air defense. The Kinzhal, is far more advanced and faster than any operational BrahMos variant, it was meant to be Russia’s “silver bullet.” Yet, as I’ve said before, such missiles come with their own drawbacks.

If there’s one lesson to take from missile strikes in the Ukrainian conflict, it’s that ballistic missiles tend to have a higher chance of hitting high-value targets (HVTs). Around 1,300 Iskanders were launched, with only a little over 60 intercepted — roughly a 4.3% interception rate.

On the other side, Ukraine effectively used HIMARS and ATACMS to destroy S-400s, S-300s, and multiple other HVTs deep inside Russian territory.

Therefore, Pakistan’s strategy of maintaining a separate line of conventional, non-strategic ballistic rockets , such as the Fatah-1 and Fatah-2 , is rooted in ground realities.

A lot of that makes sense, but I would be careful in comparing the air defence assets of Ukraine with those of india, it's not a like for like comparison. The Ukrainians are using mostly western air defence systems, while the indians will be using mostly Russian systems. And as you rightly pointed out, the Ukrainians have been able to attack and destroy systems like S400 using HIMARS, and I would bet S400 wouldn't fair too well against a high speed guided TBM, or even the CM400AKG, with terminal manoeuvring capability.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

A mach 0.7 missiles can not be answer to a mach 3-5 missile.

Subsonic cruise missiles are more stealthy and survivable than supersonic cruise missiles, only supersonic have a better reaction time than Subsonic

 

[kambhakt]

Yeah and if there is 50 of them heading towards say Pathenkot or Udampur, that gives you less then 10 mins to take them all out

Are you going to use 750 km range missiles to take out places 50 km from the border. Both Udhampur and Pathankot are in artillery range of the border.

 

[Ak01]

At 0.7 Mach and range of 750Km, it will need around 50 minutes to get to its target.

yes, but question is when will you be able to detect them...?

ive done some crude math here, ive assumed a worst case scenario of an RCS of 1m^2, which will be an order of magnitude greater than reality. With terminal terrain hugging of 50 meters:

91N6E/Swordfish type, with a VERY Generous antenna height of 40 meters, det range is 55.12km, this means a TTI of 3 min 21 seconds.

92N6E/EL/M-2243, Mast height of 30 meters, 51.7km det range. TTI= 3 min and 8 seconds

QRSAM etc, 12 meter mast height, det range 41.3km, TTI 2min 38s.

using a stealthier babur model even further changes the equation in some cases

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Unfortunately mods have deleted my message but I will reiterate that a Mach 0.7 cruise missile is not the answer to a Mach 3 supersonic cruise missile

There is a unique special penetration ability in the latter and hence more reliable for high value protected targets

Subsonic cruise missiles are more stealthy and survival than Supersonic cruise missiles only Supersonic has a advantage of lesser reaction time than Subsonic cruise missiles

 

[Ak01]

Subsonic cruise missiles are more stealthy and survival than Supersonic cruise missiles only Supersonic has a advantage of lesser reaction time than Subsonic cruise missiles

the latter isnt true, as i showed in the numbers above

the shortfall i guess is that subsonics arent as big of an interception problem vs supersonics

 

[Ali_Baba]

FATAH-4 has siginificant military value, you can see how slow moving Pakistani drones made it all the way to New Delhi with a high degree of success. So, this CM will have equally as good if not better success given its speed relative to drones. Once you have punched through the AD Layer that borders Pakistan, these CM can travel freely in inner-India and hit their targets. The level of AD cover past what covers the border is quite low relative to the amount of space that India needs to monitor and protect. India is large country, and things can hide easily in that space, that is why the range of this CM is so important.

Look at Mumbai, it is difficult to defend Mumbai(as it Karachi) given the approach is over the sea to that city. There are lots of juicy military and economic targets in Mumbai that Pakistan can use to cause very significant damage to India if it targets that location with these Fatah-4 CMs.

Supersonic's are required for very high value targets that are actively defended by AD, but for the rest, sub-sonic CMs are more than sufficient.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

the latter isnt true, as i showed in the numbers above

the shortfall i guess is that subsonics arent as big of an interception problem vs supersonics

Yes sir, you're right but if we make them more stealthy like retired USAF AGM 129 or AGM-158 JASSM/LRASM than shouldn't we will eliminate this problem?

 

[HRK]

Apparently, the FATAH-4 was also displayed outside Jinnah Stadium. This would mark the first time the system has been unveiled to the public (it had been previously acknowledged to be in development). Interestingly, it bears a striking resemblance to the Harbah-NG, a subsonic, sea-skimming cruise missile.

View attachment 140465

View attachment 140467

Now we can safely say that FATAH is the name of the series/ family of missiles used for conventional missiles systems ,while HATAF series have nuclear capabilities .....

 

[abdulbarijan]

yes, but question is when will you be able to detect them...?

ive done some crude math here, ive assumed a worst case scenario of an RCS of 1m^2, which will be an order of magnitude greater than reality. With terminal terrain hugging of 50 meters:

91N6E/Swordfish type, with a VERY Generous antenna height of 40 meters, det range is 55.12km, this means a TTI of 3 min 21 seconds.

92N6E/EL/M-2243, Mast height of 30 meters, 51.7km det range. TTI= 3 min and 8 seconds

QRSAM etc, 12 meter mast height, det range 41.3km, TTI 2min 38s.

using a stealthier babur model even further changes the equation in some cases

- Can you kindly state the ranges you used for said radar systems for the calculations you did above? (For 5m2 sized targets etc.)

- and Just to expand on the point made ...
"the Tomahawk ALCM, designed in the 1970s and utilizing the fairly simple low-observable technologies then available, has an RCS of less than 0.05 m2."
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm

 

[Yousafzai_M]

0.7 mach? I can run faster than that!

 

[the vicious kind]

A major reason the subsonic Kh-101 cruise missiles have faced a high interception rate is the terrain. The Ukrainian–Russian region is largely flat plains, which makes it difficult for terrain-hugging missiles to evade detection. In mountainous areas, such missiles can weave through valleys and hide behind ridges, breaking the enemy radar’s line-of-sight until the last possible moment.

Another reason was that, Russia sometimes launched Kh-101s alone rather than mixing them with decoys, drones, or ballistic missiles, making them easier to prioritize and engage. Mixed Salvo Dilution , is critical for success for precision strikes.

One must also not forget that , Ukaine got extensive signals intelligence (SIGINT) support from the United States and NATO. U.S. early-warning satellites, part of systems like the Space-Based Infrared System (SBIRS), could spot the infrared signature of missile launches in real time. These detections were quickly relayed to Ukrainian command centers, giving their air-defense units several minutes of advance notice.

Additionally, NATO’s airborne platforms, such as RC-135 Rivet Joint, AWACS (E-3 Sentry), and RQ-4 Global Hawk drones, constantly monitor Russian airspace, tracking bomber flights and possible launch vectors.

Ukraine also had integrated numerous Western systems like NASAMS, IRIS-T SLM and Patriots.

So the question is , does India have the anything close to RC-135? RQ-4 global Hawk? Space-Based Infrared System(SBIRS) that can give realtime information on launhes beforejand ? Does it have IRS-T or Patriot batteries? NASAMS-2? and please dont bring up Akash NG its nowhere near as advanced

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

0.7 mach? I can run faster than that!

Then show us that you can run 450 miles/hour lol

 

[bravo_1]

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[Bentley777]

Nikal wa, fing clown who doesn't jack shit, what they are doing is exactly what's needed. Why don't you check how much is ur defense budget.

No point making this missile pak has already have babur raad taimur. The fact of the matter is if in conflict your objectives are not achieved than its serves no purpose to even spend what you have better to spend at once so it serves your purpose for investing so much time and money. Here people dream something like DF-17 reality is looks like pak is at least 5 - 7 years behind even in supersonic cruise missile tech it can be more. I think there should be accountability of people who are in charge. Budgets is separate issue no body knows what budgets they are getting its classified.