PAF F-16 | Discussions

[Metal 0-1]

India will get more Rafales for sure......to show the fake pompo of operation Bindooor success......

Meteor is not integrated on IAF rafales, obviously they will speed up that part and french will milk them.....but meteor being tested at 200km kill range with new RBE-2 radar is still yet to be seen.

IAF won't be a fully 200km kill range force for at least 1-2 years. Money can surely buy things, but can't speed up clogged and bogged production as well as testing and integration. PAF got that part right in 2022.

They're milking them as we speak, Some self proclaimed "Respected" members i.e Wind-Dahmmer here don't seem to believe that IAF got swindled by Dassault. 1.3 Billions paid for meteors and nothing came out it.

There's a rumor that IAF might look for another option instead of SCALP EG i'e Israeli Icebreaker because of delayed deliveries

 

[ThoroughPro]

Extremely unlikely with the Viper. Back in the 1990s, our Viper fleet was in a very poor state due to sanctions, this is well documented and you only need to read Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail's account of the Kargil conflict to demonstrate how lack of spares and support due to sanctions severely crippled the PAF. You would have to consider effectively setting up license manufacture to become reliant enough to counter potential sanction threats - this was the entire ethos of the JF17 programme, i.e. a sanction proof fighter.



Not for one minute did I suggest that we have a free lunch from the Chinese, but again referring to my point above, we at least have a sanction proof platform, with a greater amount of input in the IP and ToT. We would have to approach Turkey's level of license building the Viper to come equivalent to the JF17.



This again goes back to the point of the Vipers. If we have US sanctions again, the PAF would need to go scavenging for excess Vipers from around the globe, and that's not going to be possible as it was with the Mirages due to requiring US approval to buy second hand Vipers. As with the JF17, we wouldn't need to rely on other operators of the J10C if we have some degree of ToT license production of critical parts. In addition, the PLAF will still have a significant number of J10s in operation for the next 20 years or so, they aren't going to be retired imminently, and therefore the PLAF's fleet will still require support.


I think at the moment the work share is the central fuselage comes from CAC, and all other parts of the airframe are manufactured in PAC (correct me if I'm wrong). IMHO, the PFX project is essentially that, complete manufacture of the JF17 by PAC, which would significantly boost our ability to sustain the platform in the foreseeable future. If PFX isn't that, then we could be looking at PFX (whatever it turns out to be) supplanting the JF17 as the "indigenous" platform of the PAF.


Yep, it's exactly that. We can't do everything in house, so we buy stuff we can build and support in Pakistan, that isn't going to change. But again, at least that provides a home-based supply chain free of sanctions, and that's the most critical part.

I don't think you quite understand how sanctions have impacted the PAF and it's thinking over the decades. What's of critical importance above anything else is having a sanction free supply chain, rather than an asset that becomes a paperweight at the whims of whoever may be resident in the Oval office.

We should not fall for current (temporary) love affair with the US, in the long run their interest aligns with indian interest. Investing in major defensive /offensive platform that is subject to restrictions/sanctions would be suicidal and PAF making the same mistake again would be criminal. Now that we are alsmot free from that extortion an dhave somewhat switched to more capable, dependable, reliable, sanction free Chinese platform which provides/comes with a complete echo system, it makes complete sense to invest more in the Chinese fighters. Induct one or two additional J10's then move to 5th gen Chinese fighters which are more affordable can be readily integrated in the existing echo system.

 

[ThoroughPro]

They're milking them as we speak, "Respected" members here don't seem to believe that IAF got swindled by Dassault. 1.3 Billions paid for meteors and nothing came out it.

There's a rumor that IAF might look for another option instead of SCALP EG i'e Israeli Icebreaker because of delayed deliveries

I am 100% sure of that, I knew it when India was playing their games negotiation the deal for years and years, I knew then that French will not only skin them, they would also make them pay for it.

 

[FarhanSiddiqui]

India will get more Rafales for sure......to show the fake pompo of operation Bindooor success......

India will definitely buy two or more squadrons of Rafale-4 for the IAF. Russian Su-57 is not stealth 5th generation fighter and Indians know it but they may buy two or more squadrons of Su-57. Now IAF is also evaluating Korean KAI KF-21 Boramae 5th generation fighter.

 

[FuturePAF]

That is why Pakistan needs to upgrade its F-16s to Block 70. Buy more used F-16s that can also be upgraded to Block 70. The F-16 Block70 are considered to be clear and future danger for the Indians.

If many used F-16s are purchased, with a Turkish MLU/SLEP the F-16s can soldier on for decades, and with modest upgrades can be a potent strike platform for long range Turkish strike weapons (ideally, IMHO, we should replace nearly all mirages with modernized enough for strike and enough to carry the Aim-120c5 and/or GoKhan, F-16s). 18-36 with the full Block 72 American upgrade can function as the Aim-120D carriers, while 18-36 Turkish upgraded ones can fire the Go-Khan missile. This will at least fill the strike gap on the horizon with the aging mirages. J-10s are a good stop gap until the J-35 can be acquired to take the lead in the air superiority role. The bulk of the Indian fleet will be equipped with Astra 3 ducted ramjet missiles with 200km soon enough, and the Aim-120D, GoKhan & PL-15 across 3-5 squadrons of F-16s and J-10s should be able to hold the line (even against the Rafale), while the 2 squadrons of J-35 with PL-15 & PL-16 should be able to hold their own against the Su-57. Investing in the integration of the PL-15 into the JF-17 should also help hold the line and leave space for the larger platforms to go on the offensive, when most are brought to the Block 3 standard.

More force multipliers and modern high data rate datalinks along side more modern AWACS (such as the Global Eye and KJ-500) can maintain the situational awareness dominance.

Pakistan should also try to love the entire JF-17 production line to Pakistan, with some of the component manufacturing for the J-10, which may be hard to get in 10 years. Pakistan should also try to help sell the J-10 to ensure enough customers are out there to make it worth it for China to keep supporting the jet.

IMHO, 1 squadron (the Block 52s) get a V upgrad, 1 new built Block 72 Squadron, 1 squadron (the youngest airframes) get a Murad upgrade, and we try to pick up 4 squadrons of used F-16s, get a SLEP and decent Turkish MLU oriented towards strike, to replace the remaining Mirages and very old F-16s in the PAF. 7 squadrons of F-16s in total; the original 126 the PAF always wanted.

Possibly acquire another J-10 squadron to allow 1 squadron of J-10 across the three commands (total 54 jets). Prepare for 40 J-35A to be spread to two high end bases. All JF-17 to the Block 3 standard, so we have a modern Air Force where all aircraft can fire 150+km missiles.

TL/DR, acquisitions should balance foreign partnerships (China, US, Turkey) and aircraft lifecycle longevity

40 J-35A (2 squadrons)
54 J-10 (3 Squadrons)
126 F-16 (3 squadrons air superiority 4 squadrons strike oriented)
156 JF-17 (9 squadrons, more strike oriented, but can hold their own in A2A)

376 throughly modern aircraft across 21 squadrons.

 

[rafale]

They're milking them as we speak, Some self proclaimed "Respected" members i.e Wind-Dahmmer here don't seem to believe that IAF got swindled by Dassault. 1.3 Billions paid for meteors and nothing came out it.

There's a rumor that IAF might look for another option instead of SCALP EG i'e Israeli Icebreaker because of delayed deliveries

Funny thing is, PAF already has their upcoming Rafales pretty much defeated even........current ones were shot at 100-150km range...possibly 190km as rumored.

Good Chance PL15 is a 200km+ range missile......so really, having RBE-2 and Meteors doesn't help them much.....

 

[FarhanSiddiqui]

Funny thing is, PAF already has their upcoming Rafales pretty much defeated even........current ones were shot at 100-150km range...possibly 190km as rumored.

Good Chance PL15 is a 200km+ range missile......so really, having RBE-2 and Meteors doesn't help them much.....

France's Rafael offers the Sky Sting, a very long-range missile with a range of up to 250 km. The Russian-made Vympel R-37M (NATO reporting name: AA-13 Axehead) air-to-air missile currently holds the title for the longest range. It is a long-range hypersonic missile with a reported range exceeding 300km. The range keeps increasing we may have 1000KM range air-to-air missile soon.

 

[Ak01]

We should not fall for current (temporary) love affair with the US, in the long run their interest aligns with indian interest. Investing in major defensive /offensive platform that is subject to restrictions/sanctions would be suicidal and PAF making the same mistake again would be criminal. Now that we are alsmot free from that extortion an dhave somewhat switched to more capable, dependable, reliable, sanction free Chinese platform which provides/comes with a complete echo system, it makes complete sense to invest more in the Chinese fighters. Induct one or two additional J10's then move to 5th gen Chinese fighters which are more affordable can be readily integrated in the existing echo system.

no it doesnt, in the long run their interest misaligns with India as India aims for more autonomy with growth etc. It wont bend the knee, Indo US love affair is only here for so long.

 

[Metal 0-1]

France's Rafael offers the Sky Sting, a very long-range missile with a range of up to 250 km. The Russian-made Vympel R-37M (NATO reporting name: AA-13 Axehead) air-to-air missile currently holds the title for the longest range. It is a long-range hypersonic missile with a reported range exceeding 300km. The range keeps increasing we may have 1000KM range air-to-air missile soon.

Sky Sting is a Israeli origin missile manufactured by Rafael. It was revealed in 2023 still no words of their integration on Israel's F-16 Sufa and F-35I. They could be in active service. We never know.

R-37M will only be available to Indians if they acquire Su-35 or Su-57

 

[ThoroughPro]

no it doesnt, in the long run their interest misaligns with India as India aims for more autonomy with growth etc. It wont bend the knee, Indo US love affair is only here for so long.

US's immediate concern is expanding Chinese power in economic, military, and political influence spheres. India has sold itself to America and the west as the only counter weight to China. USA knows it very well that India will take another 100 years to not reach even the current level of China power and when the time comes, USA will clip its wings too.

It's a different story if India is capable of or even willing to really go against China. We all know that it is neither capable of nor willing to do that, however it just wants to reap economic benefits by selling it's "World has a China Problem" and "India is the only counter weight to China" story. which is now falling apart, especially since the knocking it took at the hands of Pakistan, the never ending lies and deceit that comes out of its political and military leadership and the media. No one believes them and no one trusts them anymore, no even Russia.

 

[ThoroughPro]

Funny thing is, PAF already has their upcoming Rafales pretty much defeated even........current ones were shot at 100-150km range...possibly 190km as rumored.

Good Chance PL15 is a 200km+ range missile......so really, having RBE-2 and Meteors doesn't help them much.....

PL17 is a done deal. China now fully understands the importance and benefits of providing top notch technology to Pakistan, see how quickly they delivered Z10P's and the other stuff which is not even in public knowledge.

 

[Ak01]

PL17 is a done deal. China now fully understands the importance and benefits of providing top notch technology to Pakistan, see how quickly they delivered Z10P's and the other stuff which is not even in public knowledge.

quickly? you're joking...

 

[Scorpio]

Fan boys are not thinking this over.

I have tried to dig info on aim260 and it's becoming rather clear that f16 will NOT be carrying it. Ds are the platform ceiling. And there is no assured first look, first shoot against Rafale/meteor combo, like we presently enjoy with j10/pl15. Plus there is an option (albeit very expensive) to upgrade to pl18 if need arise. No such scalability with f16s.

F16 will become second line of defense.. most probably will be limited in defensive role..

Offensive role will be J10CE as primary. additional JF17 B3 in supportive as secondary..

Till J35 and KAAN combo take over

 

[Scorpio]

Sky Sting is a Israeli origin missile manufactured by Rafael. It was revealed in 2023 still no words of their integration on Israel's F-16 Sufa and F-35I. They could be in active service. We never know.

R-37M will only be available to Indians if they acquire Su-35 or Su-57

We know Israel and Indian relationship ... So there availability to india is quite certain....

Russian are quite comfortable to give any equipment to india . .. where they are getting good money..

 

[ThoroughPro]

quickly? you're joking...

If you say so