Hangor Class Submarine | Updates & Discussion

[rafale]

I'd push back here a bit.

Our decision-makers do NOT treat China as an "ally" nor does Beijing want us to treat them as an "ally." Our traditional approach to China has been that they are a broadly reliable supplier in that they don't sanction us nor break their contracts nor cut us off during times of war. This has been proven time and time again.

Yes, there have been periods of shady contracts where bolts were overpriced or the line-item numbers weren't provided. China's incentive structure is to MAKE YOU buy from them and they'll definitely look to max out margins where possible. This isn't too different from what the French and Russians do either, by the way.

However, even in the WORST case where we had to pay for overpriced items and inputs, they never cut us off from that item entirely. The U.S. has done that. Repeatedly. Not only that, but the US does have a record of straight up violating its contracts (Pressler), China has never done that. Yes, we do end up signing stupid contracts from time-to-time, but China would never break a good contract nor a bad one.

Rather, it's up to our decision-makers to, basically, get the best deal out of the Chinese as possible. So, where I'd differ from you (and I should make this clear from now on) is that it is NOT about the Chinese, but OUR decision-makers, i.e., are WE making the best deals as possible with whomever.

This is why, for ex., I was against the HQ-16 acquisitions. These weren't modern SAMs, and, speaking of China, we could've commissioned them to develop a SAM based on the SD-10 or DK-10 or, heck, even the PL-15E. Then, before we sign the dotted line, we'd make sure to absolutely air-gap the contract of any loose ends.

I'd argue, for example, the PN is doing a good job of this, i.e., ensuring that the Type 054A/Ps come equipped with the CM-302s, for example, or that the Hangor program leverages the PLAN's AIP rather than the standard export-grade one. Like the Thai, I'm also sure the PN negotiated in proper long-term support and warranty requirements too.

But didn't the HQ16s prove their worth in the recent May events? Or was that mostly HQ 9s ?

The problem you have identified with China is a valid one, but then at the end of the day you are one sign off by USA away from being off the IMF list and World Bank, both institutions you desperately need to sustain your economic development.

Pakistan really doesn't have much options. As long as you are poor and can't pay cash upfront, you will remain bound by diplomatic means and nothing else. In that case what you can buy today, it is better to get it. Your enemy is India and will not stop at anything not even nukes to literally wipe you off at the next opportunity.

If you have solid cash in hand, Even the French will sell you superior Rafales compared to what they sold India.

And i am not at all in favor of localizing production in Pakistan or this concept of ToT. Leads to too much fraud, theft and deceit. Haven't we seen that pretty much every industry government started has been reporting losses?

From airlines to power generation to oil and gas to NTDC to Machine tools Factory to Steel mills?

Israel was able to do it successfully because their politicians/military/bureaucracy was able to understand that nation matters more than corruption. Average Pakistani, given the opportunity, is more prone to be corrupt and a thief than an average Israeli. Secondly, they are a more homogenous nation than Pakistan. In Pakistan, before an industry is even established we have non-sense like local jobs bla bla pop up, which almost always means that you will be hiring locals based on political connections. Israel also played their diplomacy really well, bought off top end equipment from Europe and USA and also making them pay for local development. That is what led to creation of companies like Rafael, Elbit, IAI etc.

 

[Dalit]

Chinese marine Diesel engines are inferior to German ones. No one makes marine diesels better than Europeans......Wartsila of Finland, B&W of Denmark (now owned by MAN) and MAN Turbo of Germany.

Even their engines fail at times.

Low speed diesels (the likes that power VLCC/Huge container ships) and medium speed ones that power submarines of this type are a whole different ball game.

Here even US doesn't hold a candle.

So if German engine is not available, then obviously Chinese would have to suffice with the intention on replacing lots of parts over time.

That is what people used to say about Chinese products, fighter jets, missiles etc. We now know that myth didn't hold.

 

[rafale]

That is what people used to say about Chinese products, fighter jets, missiles etc. We now know that myth didn't hold.

Sure, and we all know China is advancing rapidly in almost all technologies, but some are still behind western tech in terms of reliability/durability

 

[Dalit]

Sure, and we all know China is advancing rapidly in almost all technologies, but some are still behind western tech in terms of reliability/durability

A matter of time. The Chinese have mastered far more difficult challenges. I think that China will at the very least produce similar if not better diesel engines. I don't doubt Chinese abilities for one second.

 

[Yasser76]

I'd push back here a bit.

Our decision-makers do NOT treat China as an "ally" nor does Beijing want us to treat them as an "ally." Our traditional approach to China has been that they are a broadly reliable supplier in that they don't sanction us nor break their contracts nor cut us off during times of war. This has been proven time and time again.

Yes, there have been periods of shady contracts where bolts were overpriced or the line-item numbers weren't provided. China's incentive structure is to MAKE YOU buy from them and they'll definitely look to max out margins where possible. This isn't too different from what the French and Russians do either, by the way.

However, even in the WORST case where we had to pay for overpriced items and inputs, they never cut us off from that item entirely. The U.S. has done that. Repeatedly. Not only that, but the US does have a record of straight up violating its contracts (Pressler), China has never done that. Yes, we do end up signing stupid contracts from time-to-time, but China would never break a good contract nor a bad one.

Rather, it's up to our decision-makers to, basically, get the best deal out of the Chinese as possible. So, where I'd differ from you (and I should make this clear from now on) is that it is NOT about the Chinese, but OUR decision-makers, i.e., are WE making the best deals as possible with whomever.

This is why, for ex., I was against the HQ-16 acquisitions. These weren't modern SAMs, and, speaking of China, we could've commissioned them to develop a SAM based on the SD-10 or DK-10 or, heck, even the PL-15E. Then, before we sign the dotted line, we'd make sure to absolutely air-gap the contract of any loose ends.

I'd argue, for example, the PN is doing a good job of this, i.e., ensuring that the Type 054A/Ps come equipped with the CM-302s, for example, or that the Hangor program leverages the PLAN's AIP rather than the standard export-grade one. Like the Thai, I'm also sure the PN negotiated in proper long-term support and warranty requirements too.

This is all true, but you also cannot divorce this from the economic and political backing we get from China.

CPEC and investment aside (Chinese also drive good deals for themselves here), thanks to a Chinese Veto nothing can hurt Pakistan at the UN for example, and they were instrumental in getting us into the SCO

 

[ARMalik]

Never look a gift horse in the mouth.

Lets appreciate what China has done for Pakistan. What Pakistan did to India in May could NOT have been POSSIBLE WITHOUT CHINESE HELP and Friendship.

 

[Tank131]

This is all true, but you also cannot divorce this from the economic and political backing we get from China.

CPEC and investment aside (Chinese also drive good deals for themselves here), thanks to a Chinese Veto nothing can hurt Pakistan at the UN for example, and they were instrumental in getting us into the SCO

And FATF too. I dont think it is fair or even accurate to say Pakistan doesn't view China as its ally or that China doesn't want to be viewed as such. The nature of alliances in international politics is one of a convergence in interests and an interdependence on each other on diplomatic, military, or financial issues. Pakistan to a great deal is a vassal of China, its true. But there is a strategic reliance on Pakistan from the Chinese in that they rely on Pakistan for various subtle ways (safe guarding its belly from India and west) as well as preserving its interests (financially and militarily) in the region. Pakistan also recieves fairly broad support on the international stage from China with respect to UN, FATF, SCO ect. Many Chinese i have met in the west have (perhaps just out of politeness) repeated the "Iron Brothers" line to me, unprompted which demonstrates that at least on a superficial level, the understanding of the importance of this relationship is discussed at a societal level (media and the like).

But even between allies, transactional relationships exist. Business is business and politics is politics. For China the two may be interlinked but are still somewhat separate. For the West the business is the cudgle used to beat others to submit to their politics.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

@Quwa @Fatman17 I would suggest starting a dedicated thread where the latest podcasts by Quwa can be uploaded and discussed, as these cover diverse topics and themes that deserve a greater amount of discourse, without taking away the focus of other threads, just a suggestion.

It already exists in the defence industry section and is pinned.

 

[Corax]

but this is the problem, this is equally, if not more dangerous than dealing with the US. In the times of great relationship, we would not have forseen American withdrawl of support, the Chinese relationship has not been tested yet, thus its a pretty risky move.

We are not on that level of strategic importance for the Chinese like the Israeli's are for the US. Im willing to bet we will become a second tier partner after the Chinese find someone properly worthy of a love affair

We've been forced to develop closer integration with the Chinese ecosystem because of repeated sanctions by the US, especially during critical times in Pakistan's history. The US has used Pakistan for it's strategic objectives and dumped it thereafter just as quickly. Our love affair with the US, especially when it comes to the Vipers, is rather like a wife in an abusive relationship, we know we're going to be abused, but repeatedly go back anyway.

But that is actually besides the point. Even if the risk of US sanctions were not an issue, what would we acquire from the US at this stage? F35s? Good luck with that one! In reality, we would be drawing down or historical reliance and relationship with the US anyway, regardless of sanctions.

Of course, there's no love for Pakistan from the Chinese, we're just a useful partner because our strategic objectives are on the whole in alignment, with some usefulness as a quicker route for Chinese goods to trade lanes. But at least we haven't faced the threat of sanctions by the Chinese. In addition, we can now gain access to the latest tech on par with Western systems without much restrictions at the fraction of the cost compared with Western tech.

 

[iblini]

Just thought this could be very relevant but no one posted here yet, not saying it would be available for export now but it does mean the sub now can have some deadliest teeth.

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[kimjongun]

Indias conditions now with the US is what we faced during the weapons embargos of 90s...tbh US shoudn't be trusted with anything...whether it be trump,biden,obabam bush etc..they all have catered to israel...and have stopped weapon supplies and other things to its allies when israel feels threatened....thats why europe is slightly turning towards self relient(i think)....

 

[kimjongun]

Just thought this could be very relevant but no one posted here yet, not saying it would be available for export now but it does mean the sub now can have some deadliest teeth.

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probably only for the vls

 

[Yasser76]

We've been forced to develop closer integration with the Chinese ecosystem because of repeated sanctions by the US, especially during critical times in Pakistan's history. The US has used Pakistan for it's strategic objectives and dumped it thereafter just as quickly. Our love affair with the US, especially when it comes to the Vipers, is rather like a wife in an abusive relationship, we know we're going to be abused, but repeatedly go back anyway.

But that is actually besides the point. Even if the risk of US sanctions were not an issue, what would we acquire from the US at this stage? F35s? Good luck with that one! In reality, we would be drawing down or historical reliance and relationship with the US anyway, regardless of sanctions.

Of course, there's no love for Pakistan from the Chinese, we're just a useful partner because our strategic objectives are on the whole in alignment, with some usefulness as a quicker route for Chinese goods to trade lanes. But at least we haven't faced the threat of sanctions by the Chinese. In addition, we can now gain access to the latest tech on par with Western systems without much restrictions at the fraction of the cost compared with Western tech.

To be honest China's attitude has not been effected for 75 years of Pak-China relationship. Pakistan plays a massive role in Chinese foreign policy. They also have very long institutional memories. Very long.

Pakistani military advice and exposure to western tech was shared with China in 60,70s and 80s. No obviously the boot is on the other foot. China has surpassed pretty much everyone and soon US in all spheres.

Since Pakistan's inception US was the leading global source of cutting edge weaponry, and yes, we got hooked on it (F-86, F-104, B-57, F-16).

However, even if US right now offered us everything on a plate for free (F-35, E-7, P-8) etc. It would be a step backwards by the time these assets are integrated.

China will be technologically dominant. Only a fool would think the J-35 coming out will not have taken in many lessons from the J-20 and indeed (thanks to Chinese espionage) the F-35 and F-22.

After that in terms of 6th Gen it is China's world. I have not even got started in terms of their EW, AEW, and Cyber capabilities. They probably gave us second line kit and this was enough to blind Rafales and SU-30s.

I think, like the US-UK partnership or like the French-German partnership, Pak-China will have ups and downs (and credit to both sides, very little downs) but has proven it can endure.. Even when Pak was part of CENTO/SEATO or closes US ally in the 80s and even when China went through both Cultural Revolution and confrontations with US in 70s. Partnership endured, and continues to. No longer just based on mutual distrust of India but many other factors.

 

[iblini]

probably only for the vls

It can be fired from torpedo tube like YJ-18, PLAN would not accept it otherwise.

 

[kimjongun]

It can be fired from torpedo tube like YJ-18, PLAN would not accept it otherwise.

hmm thats seems good then..but doesnt it would limit its range consedering..the tubes can only be so long?