Hangor Class Submarine | Updates & Discussion

[maverick]

I hope you are right. Also, having the main naval base at Karachi always looked to be a high risk. IMHO, The PN should consider a new base on the Sindh side of the river near Hub, with pens dug into the mountains to house all vessels, including large ships. The PN fleet isn’t so large building a few dozen pens over the next decade, plus a massive new military only harbor with an airport isn’t worth it.

For the subs, one entrance in and one entrance out would be fine for a massive cavern, but for surface vessels, individual hanger like caverns for the large ships and large caverns/pens for the smaller patrol craft would be ideal.


This is what the Soviet were said to have planned according to 80s US DoD publications.
View attachment 141919

China is building it, as part of strategic military pact, just like US India.
it will be used jointly by Pakistan and Chinese naval subs.

 

[FuturePAF]

China is building it, as part of strategic military pact, just like US India.
it will be used jointly by Pakistan and Chinese naval subs.

Bound to happen considering the Indian threat and Pakistan’s only way to counter it would be working with one of its partners.

P.s. I hope Pakistan gets 3-4 nuclear attack boats with UVLS tubes such as the Type 093B out of this arrangement. I guess The PN will be a net security provider in the Indian Ocean alongside the PLAN, to protect Chinese SLOCs.

If Chinese subs are based there, it could mean China could signal to India to not put a blockade on the Pakistani coast, or else face consequences; Pakistan employing Chinese “extended deterrence”. If China does this well it could be a model for Chinese arrangements with other nations. Look at how it helped out Cambodia in ending the conflict with Thailand.

India’s indication that the revival of /next iteration of Op Sindoor (false flag false premise unprovoked attack upon Pakistan) will come in the form of a naval blockade has necessitated this move by Pakistan.

36:00 onwards. So I guess this does not apply to Gwadar but Ormara.

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https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&context=cmsi-maritime-reports

 

[Oscar]

True, but the first Agosta 90B, PNS Saad was inducted in 2003. Operating in these same waters, it will be in service till 2035-40.
Conditions that you are referring to have to be catered to with regular overhaul services etc.

They cannot be “Solved”
its the simple math
Live in Lahore smog and go to Northern areas once in a year for overhaul.

Or live in a cleaner environment and longer

 

[Blain2]

They cannot be “Solved”
its the simple math
Live in Lahore smog and go to Northern areas once in a year for overhaul.

Or live in a cleaner environment and longer

Not sure what you are saying.

PN has been supporting Agosta-70s, 90s and now the Hangor class in the very same waters.

The Navy knows what impact the elements have on the outer hulls of surface and sub-surface elements and their maintenance is done as per schedule. If the water quality in Karachi was found to be unacceptable, the SSKs could also be hosted out of Ormara, Pasni, and Gwader bases. I am not sure if PN has taken the steps to withdraw its submarine assets out of Karachi.

 

[Oscar]

Not sure what you are saying.

PN has been supporting Agosta-70s, 90s and now the Hangor class in the very same waters.

The Navy knows what impact the elements have on the outer hulls of surface and sub-surface elements and their maintenance is done as per schedule. If the water quality in Karachi was found to be unacceptable, the SSKs could also be hosted out of Ormara, Pasni, and Gwader bases. I am not sure if PN has taken the steps to withdraw its submarine assets out of Karachi.

It has always been corrosive and reduces service life along with needing more tha frequent maintenance.

However, funds for Ormara are never sufficient enough to do the full move.
Just moving subs is one expense
Housing
Expanding base
Weapons and spares storage
Fuel storage
All of that is cost prohibitive

So the subs stay where they are

 

[Aamir Hussain]

inside mountains, deep channel which is more than 800 feet deep, and evenly goes inside the mountains. then subs surface up
what i have heard that the depth under the plateau is more than 1000 meters..

Thank you for the reply. I do not see any HVAC equipment (Very Large Heat Exchanger type of setup that is needed to supply air and air conditioning) in an around the Ormara's Hammer Head. The sub pens initially, when designed, had downwards sliding steel doors open to sea with breakwater in front of them deeper into the sea.

We have never seen any dredging activity on the seaward side nor any boring platform anchored on the seaward side not any construction activity.

So what you might be referring to is a plan but not yet activated or visible.

Mind you the total Makran Belt is a seismically active zone. Therefore, any deep tunneling or boring at a large scale needs to be evaluated carefully.

 

[rafale]

The German engine couldn't be delivered due to an EU embargo?

How about Pakistan reject German request to take back Afghan interpreters and translators that were destined to Germany?

Nevertheless, what the Germans won't provide to Pakistan, China will provide in abundance.

Chinese marine Diesel engines are inferior to German ones. No one makes marine diesels better than Europeans......Wartsila of Finland, B&W of Denmark (now owned by MAN) and MAN Turbo of Germany.

Even their engines fail at times.

Low speed diesels (the likes that power VLCC/Huge container ships) and medium speed ones that power submarines of this type are a whole different ball game.

Here even US doesn't hold a candle.

So if German engine is not available, then obviously Chinese would have to suffice with the intention on replacing lots of parts over time.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

PN has been supporting Agosta-70s, 90s and now the Hangor class in the very same waters.

The Navy knows what impact the elements have on the outer hulls of surface and sub-surface elements and their maintenance is done as per schedule. If the water quality in Karachi was found to be unacceptable, the SSKs could also be hosted out of Ormara, Pasni, and Gwader bases. I am not sure if PN has taken the steps to withdraw its submarine assets out of Karachi.

This is a known issue with Karachi port. There are several reports made over the period of time by many people / organisations. Govt/Navy had remain sluggish, incompetent to resolve this for decades. We must have had 4 to 5 naval bases till now. But we were too slow in building even one more (Ormara). Now we are seeing some ships / subs being deployed at Ormara but still majority (80 to 90%) remains at Karachi.

IMO Agosta 70s are unserviceable / or non-combat effective by now. Never heard about its overhaul / upgrade for decades. The focus is on 3 90Bs are capable / recently modernized ones.

Just moving subs is one expense
Housing
Expanding base
Weapons and spares storage
Fuel storage

I have seen some progress in last 3 years (via satellite imagery) in Housing / facilities, storage centers.

 

[kimjongun]

Sindh side isn't safe. It should be away from border. Ormara is best. If additional is needed then Gwadar also is good.

About your concept photo, the Russians did made such bases. Chinese have such bases. Swedes and other Scandinavians are believed to have those too. India is building one. More images and concept at below post:

even the croatians had them

 

[Blain2]

This is a known issue with Karachi port. There are several reports made over the period of time by many people / organisations. Govt/Navy had remain sluggish, incompetent to resolve this for decades. We must have had 4 to 5 naval bases till now. But we were too slow in building even one more (Ormara). Now we are seeing some ships / subs being deployed at Ormara but still majority (80 to 90%) remains at Karachi.

IMO Agosta 70s are unserviceable / or non-combat effective by now. Never heard about its overhaul / upgrade for decades. The focus is on 3 90Bs are capable / recently modernized ones.

View attachment 142011




I have seen some progress in last 3 years (via satellite imagery) in Housing / facilities, storage centers.

Thus suggesting PN has Ormara, Pasni and Gwadar as options beyond Karachi's polluted waters.

Point about Agosta-70s was not about them being seaworthy now, rather they were operated out of the same polluted waters for over 3 decades.

As you and others are pointing out, if there is significant pollution, PN will have to decide on the material impact to its assets.

 

[Great Mal]

Ormara is the last place PN would build a sub base or pen its literally a tourist hotspot & next to a massive civilian settlement. If anything Pak naval base should be as east as possible alongside the arabian coast.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

Ormara is the last place PN would build a sub base or pen its literally a tourist hotspot & next to a massive civilian settlement. If anything Pak naval base should be as east as possible alongside the arabian coast.

That's most unrealistic post I have come across in a while. Each and every point in your post is hilariously invalid. A little research sometimes is useful before passing judgement. So Karachi naval base is not next to even massive civilian settlement? Literally every military base, cantonment, airbase is in proximity of civilian settlements. Ormara is most secure because small town of ormara itself has several PN establishments, PN watches the whole security and then main naval base is cordoned off several kms ahead, the whole base and then the hammerhead is isolated only for navy.

PN has spent literally billions of dollars till date on Ormara and you are saying its the "last" place for them to build submarine base LMAO!. It was decided decades ago and all those years, loads of work is done. All that for nothing? ALL of PN efforts in last 30 years should go to drain according to your logic.

Ormara is Pakistan navy's crown jewel. Its already is an established naval base. Whole of Ormara is PN's domain. Ormara is relatively small town. PN has made several projects including hospitals in Ormara. It has established its cadet school, officers colony, PN marines are also located here, PN marines air defense units are established in Ormara for years now (near Ormara airport). PN helicopters facility is estabished at two different spots. The main naval base was built with millions of dollars spent already. Its already operational. Ormara is literally the ONLY place where sub pens are to be built (or already being worked on). Its only place that has natural elevation, deep water, and supporting PN logistics of fuel, housing, ammo storage everything.



The black rectangles are the cordoned off regions with fence and checkposts. These are perimeters for Pakistan navy installations. You can see everything with satellite maps. Only the red rectangle is your "massive" civilian area. So you can see basically whole place is a base. Its the only IDEAL place available to Pakistan navy. So much for "last" place comment lol.

 

[Great Mal]

That's most unrealistic post I have come across in a while. Each and every point in your post is hilariously invalid. A little research sometimes is useful before passing judgement. So Karachi naval base is not next to even massive civilian settlement? Literally every military base, cantonment, airbase is in proximity of civilian settlements. Ormara is most secure because small town of ormara itself has several PN establishments, PN watches the whole security and then main naval base is cordoned off several kms ahead, the whole base and then the hammerhead is isolated only for navy.

PN has spent literally billions of dollars till date on Ormara and you are saying its the "last" place for them to build submarine base LMAO!. It was decided decades ago and all those years, loads of work is done. All that for nothing? ALL of PN efforts in last 30 years should go to drain according to your logic.

Ormara is Pakistan navy's crown jewel. Its already is an established naval base. Whole of Ormara is PN's domain. Ormara is relatively small town. PN has made several projects including hospitals in Ormara. It has established its cadet school, officers colony, PN marines are also located here, PN marines air defense units are established in Ormara for years now (near Ormara airport). PN helicopters facility is estabished at two different spots. The main naval base was built with millions of dollars spent already. Its already operational. Ormara is literally the ONLY place where sub pens are to be built (or already being worked on). Its only place that has natural elevation, deep water, and supporting PN logistics of fuel, housing, ammo storage everything.

View attachment 142055

The black rectangles are the cordoned off regions with fence and checkposts. These are perimeters for Pakistan navy installations. You can see everything with satellite maps. Only the red rectangle is your "massive" civilian area. So you can see basically whole place is a base. Its the only IDEAL place available to Pakistan navy. So much for "last" place comment lol.

Not sure you realise how stupid it is to build an submarine base (which is a multi billion dollar investment) in the midst/next to civilian areas in an region which is known for being volatile & to be teeming with insurgents.

The Navy does have presence at Ormara which none of us are denying. Am sure they know where & how to build a submarine base (if they ever do decide to build one).

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The main hill top of Ormara itself has a paved road to the top which is accessible to civilians am sure they would allow civilians to traverse up it if it was a submarine base or 'would' be .

 

[Starlord]

I don't know if its a valid question or a good idea, but can we do something with Astola Island ? Its small but also has a flat surface, so in naval terms can it be useful for like a AD battery ? or we can put few ground launch anti Ship missiles there ?

 

[Corax]

@Quwa I listened to you guys on the latest podcast, you must have spent a good chunk of time talking about some of the cons of dealing with the Chinese, which I don't doubt for one minute, and the need to diversify, but your very next sentence was ... "Next , let's move to the hongor sub, which were delayed due to Germany refusing to supply engines..." lol sorry, but I couldn't help but chuckle. But joking aside, I agree with some of the points raised. There's pros and cons dealing with any third party, we all know what those are when it comes to the West and Chinese, but even when we try to diversify away from our historical sources, we get stung like the T129 debacle. The reality is that we're moving away from primarily the US ecosystem towards 80-90% integration with the Chinese ecosystem, but that only reflects broader factors like strategic necessity, more than anything else. There'll be a smattering of projects with the Turkish and home grown efforts, and maybe a few systems from European suppliers. The South African OEMs have largely been cannibalised by the UAE and there's not much of a defence sector left there, while Brazil doesn't really produce much that fits with our requirements, the MAR1 is another example where we acquired a weapon that we quicky realised didn't match our requirements and promptly vanished from sight, only to be replaced by a better performing system from China to fill that role (anti radiation SEAD missile in the for of the CM-400AKG).