China pushes CPEC 2.0 despite fears

What are your total exports and imports ? Your are regurgitating social media and pseudo intellectuals nonsense......I am not into such discussions.....last post on this subject. I am looking forward to some rain Islamabad region ....have a nice day.
We are not talking about current exports and imports. This is a thread about the future of Pakistan and CPEC. Your argument was money should not be poured into infrastructure projects and you wanted to know examples of countries who did what we are going to do. I think I have given my response in that regard pretty comprehensively. It's up to you how you would like to perceive it.
 
CPEC is unique in the sense it's not just about connectivity between Pakistan and China. It is connectivity between Pakistan with Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and Iran and China and Iran and China and Middle East and to ensure success we are expanding our cooperation to industry and agriculture now in the next phase to create jobs and increase exports.
Many Pakistanis don't understand the true role of CPEC as a trade corridor for Pakistan. Let me give you an example.
==================================
In 1965, Singapore gained independence from Malaysia. Lee Kuan Yew implemented major reforms in Singapore's economy, developing an export-oriented economy and focusing on labor-intensive industries, primarily traditional handicrafts. These economic measures stabilized Singapore and provided basic living needs for its people, but they were not enough to make them prosperous.

In 1978, China began its reform and opening-up policy. Relations between China and Western countries became friendly, and trade began. At the time, goods trade was primarily carried out by sea. These ultra-large transport fleets began to crisscross China with Europe, the Middle East, and other destinations.

However, China lacked large deep-water ports at the time, making it impossible for large ships to dock in China. Therefore, Singapore became the ideal transit point. All large ships would unload their cargo at Singapore ports. The cargo would then be loaded onto smaller ships for shipment to China. At the same time, Singapore vigorously developed its financial services and tourism industries.
All of these are related to trade between China and Western countries. Logistics, financial services, and tourism account for over 70% of Singapore's total economy.

In 1995, China began construction of the Yangshan Port. Once completed, large ships could reach China directly without transiting through Singapore. This move was met with strong opposition and criticism from Singapore, as it would severely undermine Singapore's role as a trade hub.

Realizing its inability to change this situation, Singapore began shifting its economic strategy. Currently, Temasek, Singapore's sovereign wealth fund, not only holds extensive stakes in Singapore but also invests heavily in various Chinese companies and banks. They also make significant investments in China. Many large Chinese companies are now controlled by Singapore, and they have penetrated every corner of the Chinese market. However, we no longer have the ability or interest to distinguish between them.

We know that Singapore's defense is entirely dependent on the United States. However, economically, China and Singapore are completely integrated. China cannot boycott or sanction Singapore, nor can Singapore boycott or sanction China. If leaders of both governments consider adopting hostile policies toward the other, they must carefully consider the consequences. This will be more conducive to the healthy development of bilateral relations.
==================================
Trade routes are a quick way to boost a country's economy.
1. Middle Eastern oil can be quickly transported to Gwadar Port via ships of all sizes and then delivered to China via pipeline. Chinese goods can also be shipped to Pakistan by land (highways/high-speed rail), and then from Pakistan to the Middle East via short-sea shipping or other routes.
Pakistan can earn lucrative transit fees.
2. China and Middle Eastern countries face significant language and cultural differences. Pakistan does not face these challenges. Therefore, Pakistani companies are ideal intermediaries for these transactions, including currency conversion.
At the same time, the trade routes are also very beneficial to China. It binds China and Pakistan closely together.

As for China's other commercial activities in Pakistan, such as building power plants, opening factories, and making commercial investments, these are merely products of bilateral relations and general commercial principles, and do not bind China and Pakistan strategically. In other words, China can do these things in Pakistan and elsewhere. By comparison, conditions in Southeast Asian countries are far more favorable than in Pakistan. Based on the most basic principles of commercial interests, capital will naturally flow to places with better environments.

But, CPEC's strategic role as a trade channel is difficult for other countries to replace. The best option for China is to establish a trade channel between China and Middle Eastern countries through Pakistan. However, if this trade route is delayed in opening, China will have to find a way to open an alternative route. Although the cost of these alternative routes is higher than that of CPEC, it is better to have them than not.
 
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Many Pakistanis don't understand the true role of CPEC as a trade corridor for Pakistan. Let me give you an example.
==================================
In 1965, Singapore gained independence from Malaysia. Lee Kuan Yew implemented major reforms in Singapore's economy, developing an export-oriented economy and focusing on labor-intensive industries, primarily traditional handicrafts. These economic measures stabilized Singapore and provided basic living needs for its people, but they were not enough to make them prosperous.

In 1978, China began its reform and opening-up policy. Relations between China and Western countries became friendly, and trade began. At the time, goods trade was primarily carried out by sea. These ultra-large transport fleets began to crisscross China with Europe, the Middle East, and other destinations.

However, China lacked large deep-water ports at the time, making it impossible for large ships to dock in China. Therefore, Singapore became the ideal transit point. All large ships would unload their cargo at Singapore ports. The cargo would then be loaded onto smaller ships for shipment to China. At the same time, Singapore vigorously developed its financial services and tourism industries.
All of these are related to trade between China and Western countries. Logistics, financial services, and tourism account for over 70% of Singapore's total economy.

In 1995, China began construction of the Yangshan Port. Once completed, large ships could reach China directly without transiting through Singapore. This move was met with strong opposition and criticism from Singapore, as it would severely undermine Singapore's role as a trade hub.

Realizing its inability to change this situation, Singapore began shifting its economic strategy. Currently, Temasek, Singapore's sovereign wealth fund, not only holds extensive stakes in Singapore but also invests heavily in various Chinese companies and banks. They also make significant investments in China. Many large Chinese companies are now controlled by Singapore, and they have penetrated every corner of the Chinese market. However, we no longer have the ability or interest to distinguish between them.

We know that Singapore's defense is entirely dependent on the United States. However, economically, China and Singapore are completely integrated. China cannot boycott or sanction Singapore, nor can Singapore boycott or sanction China. If leaders of both governments consider adopting hostile policies toward the other, they must carefully consider the consequences. This will be more conducive to the healthy development of bilateral relations.
==================================
Trade routes are a quick way to boost a country's economy.
1. Middle Eastern oil can be quickly transported to Gwadar Port via ships of all sizes and then delivered to China via pipeline. Chinese goods can also be shipped to Pakistan by land (highways/high-speed rail), and then from Pakistan to the Middle East via short-sea shipping or other routes.
Pakistan can earn lucrative transit fees.
2. China and Middle Eastern countries face significant language and cultural differences. Pakistan does not face these challenges. Therefore, Pakistani companies are ideal intermediaries for these transactions, including currency conversion.
At the same time, the trade routes are also very beneficial to China. It binds China and Pakistan closely together.

As for China's other commercial activities in Pakistan, such as building power plants, opening factories, and making commercial investments, these are merely products of bilateral relations and general commercial principles, and do not bind China and Pakistan strategically. In other words, China can do these things in Pakistan and elsewhere. By comparison, conditions in Southeast Asian countries are far more favorable than in Pakistan. Based on the most basic principles of commercial interests, capital will naturally flow to places with better environments.

But, CPEC's strategic role as a trade channel is difficult for other countries to replace. The best option for China is to establish a trade channel between China and Middle Eastern countries through Pakistan. However, if this trade route is delayed in opening, China will have to find a way to open an alternative route. Although the cost of these alternative routes is higher than that of CPEC, it is better to have them than not.
How do you plan to transport oil,
from Gwadar to China ?

There are no oil pipelines currently, and no budget has been allocated for such a project in the future.
 
How do you plan to transport oil,
from Gwadar to China ?

There are no oil pipelines currently, and no budget has been allocated for such a project in the future.
The core project of the CPEC is the four corridors between Gwadar, Pakistan, and Kashgar, China: roads, railways, oil and gas pipelines, and fiber optic cables.

If these projects don't exist, then the CPEC doesn't exist.

But now, there are still many problems between China and Pakistan. Some things have yet to be implemented.
 
The core project of the CPEC is the four corridors between Gwadar, Pakistan, and Kashgar, China: roads, railways, oil and gas pipelines, and fiber optic cables.

If these projects don't exist, then the CPEC doesn't exist.

But now, there are still many problems between China and Pakistan. Some things have yet to be implemented.
Why do you think that these projects weren't initiated from the start ?

What was / is the hindrance in pursuing these projects?
 
Pakistan doesnt have spare 100B dollars to build Gwadar and Cpec, to build all the infrastructure, no nation is willing to invest billions in to Pakistan except China, our biggest ally. Pakistanis need to appreciate this, work with China, build up everything. If millions of Pakistanis get jobs in Gwadar and Cpec this is more than enough for us. Ofcourse China is not going to invest 100B without any profit, or with high taxes. Pakistanis need to stop their incompetence and genuine work towards this. Sell this to the people of Balochistan, show them how they will too benefit with jobs, and slowly their areas will be built up. The potential for success is high if only we have competent people in charge.

Pakistan can easily set up Cpec/Gwadar investment fund and Pakistanis from all over the world would invest billions annually but ofcourse we all know the money will be eaten up by the corrupt. Incompetence is what is destroying everything.
 
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The core project of the CPEC is the four corridors between Gwadar, Pakistan, and Kashgar, China: roads, railways, oil and gas pipelines, and fiber optic cables.

If these projects don't exist, then the CPEC doesn't exist.

But now, there are still many problems between China and Pakistan. Some things have yet to be implemented.

We have a full blown insurgency taking place, weekly attacks on security forces, till we sort out this mess I doubt anything significant can happen. When a nation wants foreign investment, industries etc they need to gurantee security.
 
You are all overlooking a major factor. China didn't just invest in physical infra and factories. It started invested in its people- sanitation, basic education and healthcare- long before 1979. It entered the LPG era with a much better-quality manpower than IND did in 1991 or PAK will do now. You ignore people then it doesn't matter how many roads or power plants you build or how many factories you set up. You will still end up in a mess.

Regards
 
You are all overlooking a major factor. China didn't just invest in physical infra and factories. It started invested in its people- sanitation, basic education and healthcare- long before 1979. It entered the LPG era with a much better-quality manpower than IND did in 1991 or PAK will do now. You ignore people then it doesn't matter how many roads or power plants you build or how many factories you set up. You will still end up in a mess.

Regards

It's true aswell. At the money everything is being spent on infrastructure, but local people of that region are still poor. Why not bring them on board, show them how they will too benefit with millions of jobs, education, businesses. I think Gwadar city should be declared as special economy zone, improve it's security, build it like dubai, 50% of the jobs should be allocated to the locals, set up special training/education centres for them. The issue is corrupt Pakistani elite found a way to steal all the resources as usual and this is what is leading to all the problems. Even if agreements are sign, in reality they don't mean anything in Pakistan where rule of law doesn't exist

Some of my relatives have businesses in India, they say India is also like Pakistan but only difference is foreign investors are protected, same with Egypt where they look at foreign investors, the investors give millions of jobs to locals, locals then use that money to develop themselves. Pakistan is behind by a few decades in terms of law and order, justice, protection.
 
Like with CPEC 1.0, the only winners from CPEC 2.0 will be officials getting kickbacks and Chinese companies that will be guaranteed dollar returns backed by sovereign backstops, irrespective of whether anyone uses their projects or not.

A capital-scarce country like Pakistan cannot, or, at least, should not, waste its scare resources on huge high-risk ( not risk of completion but whether they would ever provide an economic return on the investment ) infrastructure projects. Unfortunately, India is not immune to such impractical vanity projects either - like the Mumbai - Ahmedabad bullet train , although that is at least being funded 80% by a Japanese loan at a 0.1% interest( in JPY, so it does have FX risk).
 
@PakAl

The problems you have identified are by no means unique to Pakistan- with modifications they apply to most developing countries.

India assumes that they will be able to take away a huge chunk of China's manufacturing. Our Pakistani friends here assume that Pakistan can just build factories, and the export dollars will on.

The question is do we have the entrepreneurial skills to be able to set up such factories and run proper businesses and not just make money by rent seeking. Do we have the skilled manpower- in millions- technicians, carpenters, electricians, designer and what not, who will keep these factories humming. Will they materialise just because we set up factories. I am not saying that the answer is NO, but are we even asking these questions?

Regards
 
Like with CPEC 1.0, the only winners from CPEC 2.0 will be officials getting kickbacks and Chinese companies that will be guaranteed dollar returns backed by sovereign backstops, irrespective of whether anyone uses their projects or not.

A capital-scarce country like Pakistan cannot, or, at least, should not, waste its scare resources on huge high-risk ( not risk of completion but whether they would ever provide an economic return on the investment ) infrastructure projects. Unfortunately, India is not immune to such impractical vanity projects either - like the Mumbai - Ahmedabad bullet train , although that is at least being funded 80% by a Japanese loan at a 0.1% interest( in JPY, so it does have FX risk).

Pakistan can build Gwadar and Cpec but why would anyone set up industries, use it for investment, trade when we cannot gurantee the security, imagine a bomb goes off in your office, or oil/gas pipeline gets blown up weekly. China is emerging superpower, Iran is full of resources, Pakistan can benefit billions of trade if only we can fix ourselves.
 
@PakAl

but why would anyone set up industries, use it for investment, trade when we cannot gurantee the security,

Suppose you do wipe out the Fitna-e-Hindustan and bring complete peace. Then what?

Who will set up those industries? Why would they set up industries in Gwadar and not closer to their home bases at Lahore or Karachi. How do they get skilled employees, managers? How many of them will be willing to move out of their own home provinces to take up employment there? How long will it take to skill up locals to take up jobs?

Regards
 
@PakAl

The problems you have identified are by no means unique to Pakistan- with modifications they apply to most developing countries.

India assumes that they will be able to take away a huge chunk of China's manufacturing. Our Pakistani friends here assume that Pakistan can just build factories, and the export dollars will on.

The question is do we have the entrepreneurial skills to be able to set up such factories and run proper businesses and not just make money by rent seeking. Do we have the skilled manpower- in millions- technicians, carpenters, electricians, designer and what not, who will keep these factories humming. Will they materialise just because we set up factories. I am not saying that the answer is NO, but are we even asking these questions?

Regards

Pakistan has everything except leadership. In you ever visit the Gulf countries, it is Pakistanis Indians Bangladeshis who do all the work, they build massive towers in absolutely roasting heat, maintenance, driving, cleaning, they run their economies. The difference is Arab Gulf hire competence leadership, they follow rule and regulations set up by foreign companies who they hire for their expertise. In Pakistan there is no gurantee of security of investment, no rule of law. I understand all developing countries face this and not just Pakistan but we need to get this in order and move Gwadar and Cpec towards progress, our people will get millions of jobs, they will learn and build their expertise. We can easily get billions from 10m overseas Pakistanis, they can set up factories and the rest but at the moment it's not possible due to law and order situation and someone will just overtake your business when your not their, political interference, blackmail and the rest follows.
 
@PakAl

In Pakistan there is no gurantee of security of investment, no rule of law.

Exactly. Physical security is not enough. You need a legal system which will give your businesses a reasonable surety that if they invest, they will be rewarded for their risk and their capital.

Regards
 

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