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Pros and cons with Rafale

Pros

Still a very good plane and Meteor is a good missile

French are reliable

Gives India decent numbers

India has infrastructure

Cons

PAF know this bird like the back of their hand, not just the shoot downs but the jamming a few days before that forced them to fly back, also trains with Qatari Rafales

Expensive for what it is. 1 Rafale - 2 F-16V/Gripen E

Long order wait, even assuming Dassault can ramp up more

No stealth




Cons slightly outweigh the pros here.....

I agree very expensive but so is block 72 or Typhoon ..
We have 62 in service soon when rafale marine arrives so Infrastructure already here
Reliance dassult maintenance hubs in India being built
F5 version arriving with wing men drones so future proof being made

I agree it's not fifth generation and may end up being bad choice in 2040
But the other options are poor choices
Rafale in large numbers or 150 is massive threat to any one especially if India eventually adds Amca or su57 eventually as well
 
I agree very expensive but so is block 72 or Typhoon ..
We have 62 in service soon when rafale marine arrives so Infrastructure already here
Reliance dassult maintenance hubs in India being built
F5 version arriving with wing men drones so future proof being made

I agree it's not fifth generation and may end up being bad choice in 2040
But the other options are poor choices
Rafale in large numbers or 150 is massive threat to any one especially if India eventually adds Amca or su57 eventually as well
just learned that Rafale M doesn't have folded wing capability, that definitely limited the numbers on carrier.
 
Every single adversary aircraft is a threat. Rafales will be potent adversaries even if PAF inducts J-35s because they are multi/omni-role platforms.
The J-10 + J-35 + upgraded F-16 fleet will need to managed carefully. These are three different types of aircraft with varying capabilities arrayed against an Indian front-line inventory of Rafales, Su-30MKI and Tejas taking over from Fulcrums, Mirages etc.
Rafales are a threat, if employed properly.

Rafale is omni role or whatever bullshit advertisement Dassault wants to call it only when it is flying over fractured arab lands or countries with no air defense or air force.

The moment it met a peer adversary, Rafales were shot down. Let's not over hype it. Yes it is a good plane, but over hyped for the cost you have to pay for it.

Even more funny is how the May 7th conflict pretty much obsoleted their upgrade Mirages and Mig 29s.

The way French and Indian procurement deals work, Pakistan has a lot of time to wait for the ultimate killer version of J-35s at which point there will be nothing in IAF fleet that can challenge J-35s.

Tejas and Jaguars and any remaining older MKIs (non super) and Mig29s can be splattered using F-16Vs. Which is why in the meantime PAF must go for fast tracked upgrades of F-16s.....while Pakistan is on good side of trump for the next 2-3 years.
 
I agree very expensive but so is block 72 or Typhoon ..
We have 62 in service soon when rafale marine arrives so Infrastructure already here
Reliance dassult maintenance hubs in India being built
F5 version arriving with wing men drones so future proof being made

I agree it's not fifth generation and may end up being bad choice in 2040
But the other options are poor choices
Rafale in large numbers or 150 is massive threat to any one especially if India eventually adds Amca or su57 eventually as well

I am always vocal towards having Su-57s & more Rafale in IAF colours as we need replacements for Mig-29s, Mirage & Jaguars in next 10-15 years, multiple jet inductions will not only help IAF to replace older but also to give time for local R&D to develop & mature.

IAF requires to induction atleast 15-20 squadrons of new jets other than Tejas which will not only give time for IAF to consolidate its depleted force but also provide time to invest on development of local engine & technologies for Tejas, MCA & AMCA, instead of depending on importing it.
 
Finished listening to the podcast today.

economy will NEVER get better under the military chock hold. Now that we live post operation sindoor/Banyan ul Marsoos. Expect a jacked up expenditure in military. But stop! don't have any coin in the coffers. have to keep taking loans.

india is lightyears ahead thanks to a better education system(better than Pakistan), I was talking to some south Indian IT/software professionals and it was shameful how backwards higher education has been in Pakistan. Clearly we can see how an educated country challenges the junta, that's why the youth is a threat.

the dickheads running the country will never get held accountable.
 
I am always vocal towards having Su-57s & more Rafale in IAF colours as we need replacements for Mig-29s, Mirage & Jaguars in next 10-15 years, multiple jet inductions will not only help IAF to replace older but also to give time for local R&D to develop & mature.

IAF requires to induction atleast 15-20 squadrons of new jets other than Tejas which will not only give time for IAF to consolidate its depleted force but also provide time to invest on development of local engine & technologies for Tejas, MCA & AMCA, instead of depending on importing it.

That's always been the plan TBF
With Rafale being the last imported jet or should I say MRFA being the last overseas jet

Tejas and Amca and drones unmanned drones was is the plan

But the speed with which china and even Pakistan is.modernising leaves India vulnerable for decade so more than Rafale is needed
They need a fifth generation platform I don't see Amca coming quick enough
 
India can't build the air force and military industrial complex on the current gdp of 4 trillion or the red tape and govt public bodies like drdo or half
We need double the gdp and massive private players and help from hitech companies from the west and Israel to make something really long term happen

We will never match or come even close to being china or USA level
 
But the speed with which china and even Pakistan is.modernising leaves India vulnerable for decade so more than Rafale is needed
They need a fifth generation platform I don't see Amca coming quick enough

money doesn't grow on tree or fall free from sky,

We need to invest on right areas rather than on panic spending. China has money but it has its own woes, and Pakistan has a limit since its economy is stagnant for past decade.

investing on right areas will be helpful for future, jet engine is the bottleneck now and we need to sort it out first and GoI is doing right thing by reaching out with France & UK manufacturers for JVs. These JVs might take time but it will progress just like Shakti Engine and solve our main problem.
 
Harpy the Indian is back.

Why did you feel you had confirm my ethnic race buddy
Why is this relevant
Your behaviour indicates your attitude to people is predetermined by their nationality religion rather than their respect contribution to debate or thinking
Your are pre biased
 
Why did you feel you had confirm my ethnic race buddy
Why is this relevant
Your behaviour indicates your attitude to people is predetermined by their nationality religion rather than their respect contribution to debate or thinking
Your are pre biased
You’re absolutely right!

But then there would be a more stronger negative bias there.
 
Pros and cons with Rafale

Pros

Still a very good plane and Meteor is a good missile

French are reliable

Gives India decent numbers

India has infrastructure

Cons

PAF know this bird like the back of their hand, not just the shoot downs but the jamming a few days before that forced them to fly back, also trains with Qatari Rafales

Expensive for what it is. 1 Rafale - 2 F-16V/Gripen E

Long order wait, even assuming Dassault can ramp up more

No stealth




Cons slightly outweigh the pros here.....
Not exactly
Numbers on Rafale and Meteor would give them advantage of having a fleet that has higher serviceability and finally more aircraft can talk to each other.

What will be more important is if they can get Netra numbers up as well.
Interoperability and net centric warfare is their achillees heel and if they solve that their numbers will outdo PAF.
 
We got a lot of start ups, but lack state/ private funding/ marketing/ mass production after trials/ approval/ contract. Talked to Atique sahb at the last IDEA seminar in Karachi and he has a dozen prototypes, and this Sarfarosh is the prodigy.

He gotta spend everything outta pocket, which is the hang up here.

He got ten UCAV designs ready to bring on board:

1758932993028.jpeg

Sarfarosh Kamikaze drone available in both prop and micro-jet config.
 
We got a lot of start ups, but lack state/ private funding/ marketing/ mass production after trials/ approval/ contract. Talked to Atique sahb at the last IDEA seminar in Karachi and he has a dozen prototypes, and this Sarfarosh is the prodigy.

He gotta spend everything outta pocket, which is the hang up here.

He got ten UCAV designs ready to bring on board:

View attachment 149660

Sarfarosh Kamikaze drone available in both prop and micro-jet config.
Bro @Lulldapull the Sarfarosh was designed and produced by NESCOM. The issue was never NESCOM's ability to design, they can aim for stuff in mostly every level in regards to subsonic cruise missiles and loitering munitions. The issue is that we don't have the industrial capacity to scale this out to rapidly build in large numbers.

The only way to do this now is to incentivize private investment in manufacturing, i.e., (1) guarantee large military orders, (2) reduce taxes on manufacturing (and increase it on large farm holdings and wholesale/retail), and (3) offer grants or co-invest in private-led ventures.
 
Bro @Lulldapull the Sarfarosh was designed and produced by NESCOM. The issue was never NESCOM's ability to design, they can aim for stuff in mostly every level in regards to subsonic cruise missiles and loitering munitions. The issue is that we don't have the industrial capacity to scale this out to rapidly build in large numbers.

The only way to do this now is to incentivize private investment in manufacturing, i.e., (1) guarantee large military orders, (2) reduce taxes on manufacturing (and increase it on large farm holdings and wholesale/retail), and (3) offer grants or co-invest in private-led ventures.
Private investors need to get involved, with a guarantee of an enterprise sort of agreement.

Bilal yaar even the Irani's didn't totally succeed here no?........yeah ok, they ahead of us in design/ R&D/ manufacturing, but typically their state funded orders are like 5,000 units for the IRGC and a 2,000 units for the regular military per year or so. Russia makes this much in one month alone! Russians actually using Irani drones and missiles to their fullest capabilities against Nato daily. Irani phuddu khud bewquff peechhay re gaey hain on their own designed weapons.........lol

I believe Russians have greater manufacturing/ industrial capability than Iran.

For us we got access to everything, just lack of Patron/ sponsor funding/ investors/ gubment subsidies/ Corporations- Collaborations-Co productions / co-funding like you say.

You've seen what our small enterprises/ companies totally capable of. World class products........
 
Private investors need to get involved, with a guarantee of an enterprise sort of agreement.

Bilal yaar even the Irani's didn't totally succeed here no?........yeah ok, they ahead of us in design/ R&D/ manufacturing, but typically their state funded orders are like 5,000 units for the IRGC and a 2,000 units for the regular military per year or so. Russia makes this much in one month alone! Russians actually using Irani drones and missiles to their fullest capabilities against Nato daily. Irani phuddu khud bewquff peechhay re gaey hain on their own designed weapons.........lol

I believe Russians have greater manufacturing/ industrial capability than Iran.

For us we got access to everything, just lack of Patron/ sponsor funding/ investors/ gubment subsidies/ Corporations- Collaborations-Co productions / co-funding like you say.

You've seen what our small enterprises/ companies totally capable of. World class products........
To be clear, Pakistan can scale up production capacity via NESCOM or some other state-owned enterprise. I think that's the plan for the time being.

But with that you're going to eat a lot of long-term cost, i.e., pensioned government jobs, static skill-sets, production overhead (CNCs etc) and so on.

We'd ideally shift this mass-production capacity off to the private sector that all that infrastructure and salary overhead is off the public exchequer. Moreover, with the right incentives, the military's demand will drive private investors into the area and generate lots of good jobs and, in turn, drive growth in other areas (e.g., housing, services, etc). It's the kind of economic stimulus we need and can drive through defence.

The incentives structure is key. We need to encourage the private sector to not just set up shops, but to keep innovating. Ideally, we'd reach a point similar to India or Turkey where a big defence requirement drives direct production investment which, in turn, drives the local development of tooling and jigs which, in turn, drives R&D in these areas. It's doable, but it takes time, persistence, and can-do mentality. BEC was producing jigs and tooling for Pakistani manufactures until ZAB came into power.

Pakistani private capital exists, it's just being sunk into land (literally) or into UAE due to the otherwise shaky economic climate at home. We carry out the right reforms re: tax and co-investment (e.g., government owning a minority share in new startups with an option to sell, maybe as incentives for offsets with foreign OEMs), we can start growing the economy on the right foundations and indigenize our defence needs.
 

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