TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[شَاھِین شَاہِ لَولَاک]

USA blocked sale of UCAVs to Turkiye
and Turkiye was become Drone super power in the world with its UCAVs TB-2/3, ANKA , AKSUNGUR , AKINCI , KIZILELMA , ANKA-3

USA blocked sale of PATRIOT to Turkiye
Turkiye was become 3rd country in NATO with its own layered Air Defense Systems KORKUT , SUNGUR , GURZ , GOKDEMIR , HISAR-A/O and SIPER


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Sooner or later Turkiye will finish the KAAN with TF-35.000 Engine

but we needs minimum 7 years

This is a struggle for independence And of course it takes years , we will continue to fight with determination and reach the final goal.

Only USA and China ( WS-15 ) did it in the World
also Russia is coming with 37.500 lbf AL-51F1 turbofan Engine

Turkiye will be the 4th Country in the world with TF-35.000 engine

turkiye need to worry about israel. it will be the next israeli target mark my words

 

[RajaBaja]

Forget about it, china will not sell it, except Turkey provide proposal china can't reject

WS10C is very developed technology, better than Europe and Russia.China will not export it easily.

If you don't think China will not sell it, you don't understand Pakistan's pull with China. Let Pakistan help you.

What turkey should consider is procuring and reverse-engineering the AL-31 series. F110 and WS-10 both have their gas generator design based off of CFM56, which time and again have proved difficult to master technologically with examples from Japan, Iran, and China, requiring mono-crystal fan blades and thus related metallurgy, heat treatment, and NDT technology. The immensely troubled WS-10 development history should serve as a warning instead of an example, and the Russia solution of having an engine of comparable performance, adopting simpler designs and less demanding components at the expense of engine life is more reasonable from the perspective of establishing operational capacity as quickly as possible.

If you think China will sell the WS-10 for Kaan, an competitor product in a similar niche by a regional power aspiring to be an independent security provider and industrial competitor, long considered an expansionist threat by traditional gulf country energy exporter allies, and that Pakistan somehow have enough sway with the Chinese regarding important geopolitical decisions, I think you may have made a mistake somewhere.

I've suggested above the same, get AL series engines. But the Turkish member said it was impossible due to NATO vs. Russia issue. That's a valid argument.

Now on China and Turkey and the middle east. Pakistan does have a lot of sway with China. To not understand it, is silly. I mentioned that Pakistan wants to get an engine for itself to power off its future jets under PFX program. If Turkey comes in, both nations can get say WS-10 TOT, it will cost less also because two nations are buying the TOT vs. 1. So it's beneficial from all sides. But the Turkish members don't like that idea and they think with magic, the TF35000 will work. You have to get TOT from some place. US won't give you those nor will the French. Russia is NATO's enemy. That leaves you with a Pakistani option (WS-10) so you don't upset NATO directly dealing with China for it.

Emotions and reality are two very different worlds.

 

[royalharris]

If you don't think China will not sell it, you don't understand Pakistan's pull with China. Let Pakistan help you.


I've suggested above the same, get AL series engines. But the Turkish member said it was impossible due to NATO vs. Russia issue. That's a valid argument.

Now on China and Turkey and the middle east. Pakistan does have a lot of sway with China. To not understand it, is silly. I mentioned that Pakistan wants to get an engine for itself to power off its future jets under PFX program. If Turkey comes in, both nations can get say WS-10 TOT, it will cost less also because two nations are buying the TOT vs. 1. So it's beneficial from all sides. But the Turkish members don't like that idea and they think with magic, the TF35000 will work. You have to get TOT from some place. US won't give you those nor will the French. Russia is NATO's enemy. That leaves you with a Pakistani option (WS-10) so you don't upset NATO directly dealing with China for it.

Emotions and reality are two very different worlds.

When Pakistan can get J35 from China?
when Pakistan can get J10 TOT from China?

China help Pakistan beat india don't mean Pakistan have leverage over china to help Turkey.

 

[xbat]

What turkey should consider is procuring and reverse-engineering the AL-31 series. F110 and WS-10 both have their gas generator design based off of CFM56, which time and again have proved difficult to master technologically with examples from Japan, Iran, and China, requiring mono-crystal fan blades and thus related metallurgy, heat treatment, and NDT technology.

Turkey doesnt have problems like that, we have overcome those in last decade . we are to manufacture a full engine in this decade, we just need to time thtts it.

 

[Harbyharb]

Now on China and Turkey and the middle east. Pakistan does have a lot of sway with China. To not understand it, is silly. I mentioned that Pakistan wants to get an engine for itself to power off its future jets under PFX program. If Turkey comes in, both nations can get say WS-10 TOT, it will cost less also because two nations are buying the TOT vs. 1. So it's beneficial from all sides. But the Turkish members don't like that idea and they think with magic, the TF35000 will work. You have to get TOT from some place. US won't give you those nor will the French. Russia is NATO's enemy. That leaves you with a Pakistani option (WS-10) so you don't upset NATO directly dealing with China for it.

Emotions and reality are two very different worlds.

What I’m implying is that, from the point of view of the Chinese, it’s in their best interest that both the PFX and the TAI Kaan to never, “take off”, figuratively and literally. It is in China’s interest for Pakistan and its military to be well-equipped to balance India, but otherwise more or less dependent on Chinese exports and revolving around its geopolitical agenda.

For Pakistan, China is interested in keeping its military well-equipped, but for Pakistan to have its own indigenous capability to design, develop, produce, improve, and eventually compete with Chinese arms export and thus geopolitical influence via security guarantee, while cooperating with another aspiring regional power that potentially could become a competitor or even rival, is a whole other story.

 

[Harbyharb]

Turkey doesnt have problems like that, we have overcome those in last decade . we are to manufacture a full engine in this decade, we just need to time thtts it.

If that is your perception then we can agree to disagree.

The capability of the Turkish arms development is built upon the Turkish Industry, which rose to its current eminence primarily via accepting European production capacity thanks to inexpensive yet educated labour, premier strategic location, and favorable investment returns, and these capacity is primarily centered around metallurgy, machining, appliances, electronics, and automotive accessories like trailers and truck bodies, which surprise surprise is meant that Turkey can rapidly develop precision munitions, air defence systems, armored vehicles, and warships (or the hulls at least)

But it should also be noted that several key sectors were deliberately kept out of Turkey’s reach, such as high performance engines and advanced automatic transmission, high performance turbofan, and marine engines (diesel and turbine). This should be no surprise as all other aspiring manufacturing powers like Japan, Korea, SEA, China, India, all at one point or another suffered the same prohibitions.

If Turkey is committed to overcome these prohibitions with ground-up indigenous efforts, I wish them the best, though just like other manufacturing states mentioned above, it would be decades before we see any meaningful competitive product, if they succeed at all. The claim that Turkey will reach some kind of maturity within this decade with regard to this industry is implausible to me.

 

[xbat]

But it should also be noted that several key sectors were deliberately kept out of Turkey’s reach, such as high performance engines and advanced automatic transmission, high performance turbofan, and marine engines (diesel and turbine).

if you talk like this ,there is guy who can come here and post tons of turkish engines. you just underestimate Turkey like any other europian,

 

[hodor]

If that is your perception then we can agree to disagree.

The capability of the Turkish arms development is built upon the Turkish Industry, which rose to its current eminence primarily via accepting European production capacity thanks to inexpensive yet educated labour, premier strategic location, and favorable investment returns, and these capacity is primarily centered around metallurgy, machining, appliances, electronics, and automotive accessories like trailers and truck bodies, which surprise surprise is meant that Turkey can rapidly develop precision munitions, air defence systems, armored vehicles, and warships (or the hulls at least)

But it should also be noted that several key sectors were deliberately kept out of Turkey’s reach, such as high performance engines and advanced automatic transmission, high performance turbofan, and marine engines (diesel and turbine). This should be no surprise as all other aspiring manufacturing powers like Japan, Korea, SEA, China, India, all at one point or another suffered the same prohibitions.

If Turkey is committed to overcome these prohibitions with ground-up indigenous efforts, I wish them the best, though just like other manufacturing states mentioned above, it would be decades before we see any meaningful competitive product, if they succeed at all. The claim that Turkey will reach some kind of maturity within this decade with regard to this industry is implausible to me.

You don’t know Turkey’s potential. We are producing the world’s best diesel-powered UAV engines. Ten years ago, we couldn’t produce a single engine.

Ten years from now, we will have developed the TF6000, TF10000, and TF35000. Right now, we just need engines for the first 50 Kaan aircraft, but ten years from now, this won’t be a problem anymore.

 

[hyperman]

Forget about it, china will not sell it, except Turkey provide proposal china can't reject

WS10C is very developed technology, better than Europe and Russia.China will not export it easily.

I think they will sell. Its a significant sale, and they have sold Turkey ballistic missiles before. If someone is willing to sell jets, they are willing to sell engines.

 

[hyperman]

What turkey should consider is procuring and reverse-engineering the AL-31 series. F110 and WS-10 both have their gas generator design based off of CFM56, which time and again have proved difficult to master technologically with examples from Japan, Iran, and China, requiring mono-crystal fan blades and thus related metallurgy, heat treatment, and NDT technology. The immensely troubled WS-10 development history should serve as a warning instead of an example, and the Russia solution of having an engine of comparable performance, adopting simpler designs and less demanding components at the expense of engine life is more reasonable from the perspective of establishing operational capacity as quickly as possible.

If you think China will sell the WS-10 for Kaan, an competitor product in a similar niche by a regional power aspiring to be an independent security provider and industrial competitor, long considered an expansionist threat by traditional gulf country energy exporter allies, and that Pakistan somehow have enough sway with the Chinese regarding important geopolitical decisions, I think you may have made a mistake somewhere.

There is no need to reverse engineer AL-31s. Turkey has extensive experience locally producing the F110s, if anything it would start there, rather than try to reverse engineer F110s.

I'm confident that Turkey will be able to get China to sell. It would be a significant order, and they have sold ballistic missiles to Turkey before. If they are willing to sell jets, they are willing to sell engines. Maybe they don't sell WS-15s, but WS-10s would work as well.

 

[Harbyharb]

You don’t know Turkey’s potential. We are producing the world’s best diesel-powered UAV engines. Ten years ago, we couldn’t produce a single engine.

Ten years from now, we will have developed the TF6000, TF10000, and TF35000. Right now, we just need engines for the first 50 Kaan aircraft, but ten years from now, this won’t be a problem anymore.

I hope you understand that the capability to produce 170hp piston engines for armed flying tuk-tuks is an entirely unrelated ordeal compared to a 2750 Kelvin gas generator intended for high performance turbofans.

There is no need to reverse engineer AL-31s. Turkey has extensive experience locally producing the F110s, if anything it would start there, rather than try to reverse engineer F110s.

I'm confident that Turkey will be able to get China to sell. It would be a significant order, and they have sold ballistic missiles to Turkey before. If they are willing to sell jets, they are willing to sell engines. Maybe they don't sell WS-15s, but WS-10s would work as well.

What Turkey has is the experience to assemble and overhaul F110s, a delicate arrangement precisely designed by the west to keep Turkish Air Power competent, well-equipped, well-serviced, but nevertheless dependent and thus controlled, an arrangement that have inevitably been broken when Turkey decided to seek autonomy as an independent regional power with aspirations for expanding its sphere of influence instead of a simple NATO henchmen. With key technologies and components kept out of reach, Turkey’s experience with the F110s could help to set performance benchmarks and optmize peripheral designs, but I imagine the quest to reverse engineer the key gas generator would still be an incredibly monumentous ordeal.

When China sought military and technological cooperation with Turkey back in the early 2000s, Turkey is neither an independent regional expansionist power nor an emerging provider for defense and security solutions, instead more akin to Thailand as a peripheral NATO partner and end user of western gear and tactics, the partinership with which the Chinese would gain valuable insight into the performance and requirements expected of advanced western weapons, used to bolster their indigenous endeavour. With the current perspective in mind, that ship have clearly long sailed.

The recent unpleasantries regarding the ETIM and central asia aside, should the TAI Kaan reaches maturity and displays adequate competency, the geopolitical stance of Turkey meant that it would directly compete with the FC-31/J-35 as a fifth generation air power solution for third world nations without access or couldn’t afford F-35s but find the Su-57’s performance unsatisfactory. And as is the nature of arms exports regarding advanced technology, the cooperation in training, infrastructure, tech-transfers, munitions, maintenance, and joint operations would be a significant consideration for a nation’s geopolitical orientation for decades to come.

Even in the most amicable of terms, that China isn’t interested in actively delay, disrupt and sabotage the TAI Kaan project, it would be unplausible for them to contribute to the success of their own competitor’s premier centerpiece of arms export and thus geopolitical ambition.

 

[hyperman]

I hope you understand that the capability to produce 170hp piston engines for armed flying tuk-tuks is an entirely unrelated ordeal compared to a 2750 Kelvin gas generator intended for high performance turbofans.

What Turkey has is the experience to assemble and overhaul F110s, a delicate arrangement precisely designed by the west to keep Turkish Air Power competent, well-equipped, well-serviced, but nevertheless dependent and thus controlled, an arrangement that have inevitably been broken when Turkey decided to seek autonomy as an independent regional power with aspirations for expanding its sphere of influence instead of a simple NATO henchmen. With key technologies and components kept out of reach, Turkey’s experience with the F110s could help to set performance benchmarks and optmize peripheral designs, but I imagine the quest to reverse engineer the key gas generator would still be an incredibly monumentous ordeal.

When China sought military and technological cooperation with Turkey back in the early 2000s, Turkey is neither an independent regional expansionist power nor an emerging provider for defense and security solutions, instead more akin to Thailand as a peripheral NATO partner and end user of western gear and tactics, the partinership with which the Chinese would gain valuable insight into the performance and requirements expected of advanced western weapons, used to bolster their indigenous endeavour. With the current perspective in mind, that ship have clearly long sailed.

The recent unpleasantries regarding the ETIM and central asia aside, should the TAI Kaan reaches maturity and displays adequate competency, the geopolitical stance of Turkey meant that it would directly compete with the FC-31/J-35 as a fifth generation air power solution for third world nations without access or couldn’t afford F-35s but find the Su-57’s performance unsatisfactory. And as is the nature of arms exports regarding advanced technology, the cooperation in training, infrastructure, tech-transfers, munitions, maintenance, and joint operations would be a significant consideration for a nation’s geopolitical orientation for decades to come.

Even in the most amicable of terms, that China isn’t interested in actively delay, disrupt and sabotage the TAI Kaan project, it would be unplausible for them to contribute to the success of their own competitor’s premier centerpiece of arms export and thus geopolitical ambition.

You have several things wrong here, Turkey wasn't assembling and overhauling the F110s, the parts of the F110(not all) were being built in Turkey as well as being assembled. Infact Turkey builds part and modules for several GE engines, including the GE9x and the LEAP among others.

Turkey is more Akin to Japan on this matter license producing GE engines and going on to build their own engines based on the knowledge gained, and Japan has already built an engine in the TF35000 class with the XF9.

Regardless of that, the J-35 and the KAAN are not competitors they are in separate classes, for one thing, the people buying the KAAN(outside of Pakistan) aren't really buyers of Chinese fighter jets. I don't know why you see it as implausible considering the volume order Turkey would put in for the engines. Its significant amount of money and China has been courting Turkey for quite some time in terms of investments and the Belt and Road initiative.

 

[MMM-E]

The U.S. requests Technology from BAYKAR

Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan: “The United States believes that the technology produced by BAYKAR could serve as a production capability for the U.S. They are seeking access to Türkiye’s advanced technology in this field.”




TF-6.000 / TF-10.000 turbofan Engines are on the way to power unmanned stealth Fighter Jets



We should focus on KIZILELMA and ANKA-3 unmanned stealth Fighter Jets until the KAAN

Turkiye can create a completely different and brand new balance point in terms quantity and cost effectiveness

 

[MMM-E]

I'm confident that Turkey will be able to get China to sell. It would be a significant order, and they have sold ballistic missiles to Turkey before. If they are willing to sell jets, they are willing to sell engines. Maybe they don't sell WS-15s, but WS-10s would work as well.

Enough with the spoiledness from USA-Israel
Turkiye can buy 100 WS-10 engines from China for 50 KAAN
and Engine is not a weapon .. China can sell it to Turkiye

The Chinese WS-10 engine is in the same class as the American F-110 engine
even with Chinese engine the KAAN will be far superior to F-15EX , F-16V , RAFALE ,etc


Turkiye should stop buying 40 F-16V from USA for $7 billion
and Turkiye should spend this money for developing the TF-35.000 engine and for buying WS-10 engines from China


This is clearly hostility towards Türkiye.
A NATO Country can not get even F-110 Engines from USA

USA wants to turn the Turkish Air Force into Iranian Air Force, USA neither selling Fighter Jets nor allowing Turkiye to buy Fighter Jets from Russia-China

then little insect Israel comes and attacking muslim Countries like Iran which lacks modern Air Force

The Air Force is vital to a country's security

 

[FuturePAF]

T/R module number is important, T/R type is also important
(power and heat transfer is also important )

but if the same radar set then generator power is important
F-35 has 1 x 43.000 lbf engine with 240 kw generators
1 x 29.000 lbf F-110GE-129 engine maybe will be not enough for 240 kw generators


Comparison of generator powers of some Fighter Jets

▪︎ KAAN: 2x125Kw .... 250 kw (developed by Turkish company VOLT )
▪︎ F35:3x80Kw .... 240 kw
▪︎ F22: 2x65Kw ... 130 kw
▪︎ KF-21: 2x65Kw .. 130 kw ... (Collins aerospace from USA)

250 kw generators will help KAAN to generate electricity to power the powerful AESA Radar


KAAN's 40 kw AESA Radar ( 2.000+ GaN T/R modules ) to compare with APG-77v1 AESA Radar ( 1,956 T/R GaAS modules )

RAFALE's 11,7 kw RBE2 AA AESA Radar with 838 GaAS modules

Aselsan MURAD-600 AESA Radar with GaN technology ... ( 2.000+ T/R modules )
View attachment 146297

How much power would the Murad-110a radar for the F-16 require, with how many T/R modules and at what performance (against a 1m^2 target like a Rafale with A2A missiles)?

Pakistan may want to go for the Ozgur upgrade on its Block 52 F-16s (powered by the F100-PW-229 engine, dry thrust of 79.2 kn and max thrust of 129.7 kn) on a pathway along the way to the KAAN program.

MURAD 110-A - ASELSAN

www.aselsan.com

The brochure doesn’t specify:

https://wwwcdn.aselsan.com/api/file/MURAD_110A_EN.pdf