JF-17 PFX program

[Pakistanithinktank]

I think we are going backwards to 1998 again per the post. I've said it numerous times, JF-17 was our past. It gave the nation what it needed, a workhorse, sanction free jet with top end BVR capability that we can still fly for daily, routine airspace management. It should stop with the OCU (MLU) with all 180 jets upgraded to block III standards with GaN based AESA radars and PL-15 integration. This takes care of our peacetime workhorse capabilities.

Now, JF-17's exist in 180. That's where we should stop. With KSA now in the picture for mutual defense agreement. We need to see beyond the JF-17. We can't get stuck on it like we've been stuck at the F-16. Technology changes and so do we.

We need to acquire more J-10C's to replace our aging Mirages and F-7's. That's our 4.5 gen backbone complimenting our JF-17's for workhorse airspace management needs.

We will also get about 2 squadrons of J-35's initially. I don't see those going up above 60.

Our future: Under PFX, we need a 5th gen platform similar to how we build the JF-17. With KSA In the picture, this should be TOT product, including TOT for engine tech. China doesn't need to give it's top tier WS-21 to us, but the medium sized WS-10C is fine also.

I've written a lot about getting a 5th gen single engined customized supersonic CCA with TOT that would have a manned option too. To be produced in large numbers locally. Some models were shown at the military parade. We are now a regional power through this defense pact. We have the funding also, we need to strategize accordingly and build projects meeting future needs with the top nations in the world. Not go back to 1998. We are lucky that we have the world's largest R&D nation next door. With financials becoming less of an issue, we need to train our people, acquire and build under TOT the top capability we can also deploy across KSA and a few other nations who will join the WAPAN pact (War Alliance of Pakistan & Arab Nations).


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Let’s put an end to the “fantasy talk.” Nothing in this world comes for free, everything has a cost. There is no such thing as Transfer of Technology (TOT) when it comes to advanced technologies. While China may offer equipment through loans with high interest, there’s no such thing as a free handout.

 

[RajaBaja]

Please there is nothing free in this world. Everything has a price. There is no such thing as TOT on advance technology.

Says who? Nothing is free. Our economy is getting better and we have Saudi partnership so it would be best to locally produce a 5th gen jet.

We are currently looking into this 5th gen locally build scenario that I outlined above. It's useless to go back to 1998 and continue with JF-17's when the other side will field 150 Rafales + 100+ SU-57 + 250 SU-30 super Sukoi's + 400 other jets. With China out of India's "enemy" list. These near 1000 jets are only Pakistan focused.

We can't build a 1000 jet airforce. So we'll go towards 450 jets and will focus on maintaining more stealth platforms. We will also have a decent presence in KSA so even a 4-5 squadrons dedicated to the defense pact means 80-100 jets there also. KSA is a big country and then you'll have others also.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

Says who? Nothing is free. Our economy is getting better and we have Saudi partnership so it would be best to locally produce a 5th gen jet.

We are currently looking into this 5th gen locally build scenario that I outlined above. It's useless to go back to 1998 and continue with JF-17's when the other side will field 150 Rafales + 100+ SU-57 + 250 SU-30 super Sukoi's + 400 other jets. With China out of India's "enemy" list. These near 1000 jets are only Pakistan focused.

We can't build a 1000 jet airforce. So we'll go towards 450 jets and will focus on maintaining more stealth platforms. We will also have a decent presence in KSA so even a 4-5 squadrons dedicated to the defense pact means 80-100 jets there also. KSA is a big country and then you'll have others also.

Who says Pakistan can just jump into building a 5th generation fighter jet? Our economy is fragile and still relying on IMF loans, burdened by soaring debt, with a weakening rupee and foreign reserves barely enough to cover imports. JF-17 still depends on imported engines, avionics, and electronics that means dollars we simply don’t have.

Consider the costs, even the wealthiest nations pour hundreds of billions into their 5th gen programs. For Pakistan, investing that much would devastate the economy and divert essential resources away from critical areas like jobs, healthcare, and education, which are already under severe strain.

Of course, a strong air force is vital, but the practical approach is to modernize existing assets, invest in affordable drones, missiles, and leverage partnerships for technology. Fantasizing about a large stealth fleet while the economy struggles is not a plan, it’s wishful thinking.

I didn’t post the actual data about economy because I don’t want to embarrass you.

Regarding Pakistan’s partnership with Saudi Arabia, It’s a double edged sword. On the surface, it looks like Riyadh is worried about defense, but in reality this could drag Pakistan into conflicts we don’t need. Time will tell if it’s a smart strategic move or just a trap.

And for those thinking Saudis will send ships full of gold or dollars, to Pakistan, wake up. That’s daydreaming. Saudis are not stupid; they won’t invest a single dollar in Pakistan unless it guarantees them clear benefits.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

If the J-35s are coming and China has offered a 50% discount, such they maybe near the price of the J-10s, get a couple of squadrons (40 planes) to hold some edge, and absorb the latest tech; build the logistical ecosystem and operational experience.

We need to work on giving a decent MLU to the JF-17 fleet, all planes up to a Block 3+ standard (I will explain later) and work on a full ToT of the plane down to every buy and bolt; all subsystems should be made in Pakistan. Once we can do this, we should make sure these planes can be upgraded to a Block 3+ standard; nearly or as good as the J-10C, in every way that mattered to shoot down those Rafales, as well as relatively minor technologies like OBOGS, so we can improve reliability and lower weight as much as possible. Therefore, I believe we should try to limit how many additional J-10s we procure, improve our JF-17s and really push the pedal to the metal on the PFX.

With the technical capability to build these birds, and all of their sub-systems. (Except the engines), we should partner with a Chinese company, possibly Shenyang, to design and help Pakistan build, completely in Pakistan, the PFX. Using the same engine from the J-35A, the PFX in a twin seat configuration could function as a trainer for the J-35A, and in an unmanned version function as a large enough UCAV to carry heavier A2A and A2G munitions internally, ahead of J-35 fighters.

With some ToT from the J-35A program, the PFX could incorporate all the modern technologies, but perhaps only cost $40-50 million. A medium legged fighter, build for countries like Pakistan’s with combat radius of 1000-1500 km.

IMHO, if the PFX program is to succeed, Pakistan will need to bring in partner nations to put up funding and secure sales. With the New Pak-Saudi deal, perhaps a deal with the Saudis for investment into the project, and a commitment to pay for 100 jets, with Pakistan committing to 150 jets for its part. with the funding upfront, the ToT from China and help with Chinese firms can speed up the program, such that a prototype could be built and have its first flight in 3-4 years, considering the extensive knowledge of Chinese firms. Add on 2-4 years for all the flight tests, and we could see the PFX enter full scale production by 2031-2032, at a rate of 24-30 a year (across factories in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia); fulfill the entire 250 plane order by 2040.

You didn't explain Block-III+ Standards.
Apart from that, I think ToT bid has already been done at least in soft version (blueprints, CAD/CAM design aid, Project files etc.) Ref to Wajaht Saeed Khan's vlog where he talked with ref to his correspondence with PAF on current chief's corruption allegation. He revealed that PAF told him that entire package for JF-17 platform has been secured. If it's true, It means the hold up is on areas where PAF wants to enhance things plus missing pieces on production line side. More jigs, machines, tools may be required to build 100% airframe and internal systems. It is test of PAF's project management team as much as it is of PAF's technical manpower in terms of aero engineers and technicians.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

Says who? Nothing is free. Our economy is getting better and we have Saudi partnership so it would be best to locally produce a 5th gen jet.

We are currently looking into this 5th gen locally build scenario that I outlined above. It's useless to go back to 1998 and continue with JF-17's when the other side will field 150 Rafales + 100+ SU-57 + 250 SU-30 super Sukoi's + 400 other jets. With China out of India's "enemy" list. These near 1000 jets are only Pakistan focused.

We can't build a 1000 jet airforce. So we'll go towards 450 jets and will focus on maintaining more stealth platforms. We will also have a decent presence in KSA so even a 4-5 squadrons dedicated to the defense pact means 80-100 jets there also. KSA is a big country and then you'll have others also.

Stop reading too much in this Saudia pact. It is not what people in Pakistan believed it to be. It has nothing to do against Israel or fighting any external enemies of KSA. There is none actually. It is an arragnement for bigger things on geopolitical chessboard and it has complete blessings of Uncle Sam. Any Anti-Israel alliance will be crushed before it can materialized. CIA/Mossad will simply assassinate if any leader dare to think on these lines.

 

[gusto]

Stop reading too much in this Saudia pact. It is not what people in Pakistan believed it to be. It has nothing to do against Israel or fighting any external enemies of KSA. There is none actually. It is an arragnement for bigger things on geopolitical chessboard and it has complete blessings of Uncle Sam. Any Anti-Israel alliance will be crushed before it can materialized. CIA/Mossad will simply assassinate if any leader dare to think on these lines.

if ever people could understand, they would cross every limit to fantasize.

people in Pakistan are so good at buying every piece of trash. one can literally sell them anything by giving some devoted bordering obsession.

 

[Mohid Afzal]

We need to work on giving a decent MLU to the JF-17 fleet, all planes up to a Block 3+ standard

I remeber JamD and Bilal Khan saying that B1's can not be ubgraded to B3 level due to different design in airframe

 

[Zarvan]

Dreaming is free, but investing is not. Why would Arab countries choose to invest in the PFX program, or in Pakistan, when Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the UAE have the financial resources to launch their own projects? If they really wanted, they could develop a local product like KAAN or simply procure a platform directly from China. Their options are broad, and they have the means to pursue independent defense initiatives.

Yes they have the money do they have the Technology? Do you even follow what is happening in the world. Histroy, Geography and technology plus geo politics? Your name is Think Tank but it seems there is no such thing as thinking in your posts. Arabs have the money they can buy best but issue is the best comes from Europe which would never give them the same quality and capability weapons as they give to Israel. Turkiye is catching up and China already has matched and in many cases ahead of Europe. Plus we are also working on projects from these countries they can get weapons with latest BVR, long range missiles, and other weapons to strike at long range both in the Air and on the Ground and no questions will be asked or chance of any sanctions.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

I remeber JamD and Bilal Khan saying that B1's can not be ubgraded to B3 level due to different design in airframe

PLAAF still have around 200 J-10A, if earlier block was that much easy to be upgraded then PLAAF would have definitely upgraded them to J-10C standard. @JamD @Bilal @Michael

 

[Samurai]

Its all just opinions and speculations at the moment. Let's just wait until the next IDEAS or an update from PAC regarding the progress of PFX. Lets not forget that, PFX is going to be a long journey, of which the first phase will be the Alpha version, which requires indigenization of avionics, EW, sensors and other sub-systems. In addition to that, PAC already has the Azerbaijani export orders to fulfill on time and maybe with that revenue they must be carrying out the Alpha R&D and implementation (or if they are lazy and just only working on fulfilling Azerbaijani orders).

Once that is done and we have a real live flying example of JF-17 Alpha, only then we can expect the next phase to progress i.e. PFX, but hopefully PAC is already doing the R&D for PFX in parallel and not just wasting time.

 

[Michael]

PLAAF still have around 200 J-10A, if earlier block was that much easy to be upgraded then PLAAF would have definitely upgraded them to J-10C standard. @JamD @Bilal @Michael

The J-10A and J-10C are fundamentally different. Their airframes are also completely different.

There is no possibility of upgrading the J-10A to the J-10C. In fact, they are being phased out of service.

The J-10B has some structural similarities to the J-10C. However, due to the small number of J-10Bs produced in China, it is not worthwhile to convert them into J-10Cs. China has upgraded these J-10Bs by replacing their radars and a small number of avionics systems, designating them as J-10BGs. Their performance is significantly improved over the previous J-10B, but not to the same level as the J-10C.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

The J-10A and J-10C are fundamentally different. Their airframes are also completely different.

There is no possibility of upgrading the J-10A to the J-10C. In fact, they are being phased out of service.

The J-10B has some structural similarities to the J-10C. However, due to the small number of J-10Bs produced in China, it is not worthwhile to convert them into J-10Cs. China has upgraded these J-10Bs by replacing their radars and a small number of avionics systems, designating them as J-10BGs. Their performance is significantly improved over the previous J-10B, but not to the same level as the J-10C.

are there any airframes differences between JF-17 block 1 and 3? and whether these differences is so much that they cannot be upgraded? whate your take on this? i am very bad at noticing changes in airframes.

 

[Deino]

Wasn’t aware Pakistan made a request for RD-93MA?? I know they are getting the RD-93 for the Blick 3’s.

They didn't and again it shows that @Hendarto is just a fan-boy who has no interest in facts but only in spreading stuff that sounds good!

 

[Ak01]

I remeber JamD and Bilal Khan saying that B1's can not be ubgraded to B3 level due to different design in airframe

they cant. they will certainly be retired soon.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

they cant. they will certainly be retired soon.

Can you shed lights on the technical difficulty why they cannot be upgraded into block 3? leave out the life span of airframes that is certainly one issue there?