F-16 of Pakistan Air Force

[Ali_Baba]

The V upgrades include the SLEP to enhance airframe/structures beyond 12000hr limit. So i don't see what's the issue in keeping F-16s relevant for another 10-15 years even?

How much does the SLEP upgrade cost. How many new flying hrs does that buy you, and technology what is the military capability for that money compared to other solutions? That is the real question.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[rafale]

How much does the SLEP upgrade cost. How many new flying hrs does that buy you, and technology what is the military capability for that money compared to other solutions? That is the real question.

Original F-16s were rated for 4000 hrs, then another 4000 were added with the BLK52 upgrades/MLUs, and this is the third extension they offer upto 12,000 hrs.

New build F-16s BLK 70s come with 12000 hr life out of the factory.

So with investment in upgrading at least two squadrons worth of jets to V standard, you can buy 15 years of further use, enhance your 150km+ BVR equipped numbers and make M2Ks, Mig29s, Jaguars, Tejas pretty much useless for IAF including being able to target smaller and larger drones that IAF will field.

In the next match you will need serious Air to Air missile numbers........to target manned and un manned jets because air defense will be busy tracking and shooting SCALP/Hammer/LORA/Brahmos.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Original F-16s were rated for 4000 hrs, then another 4000 were added with the BLK52 upgrades/MLUs, and this is the third extension they offer upto 12,000 hrs.

New build F-16s BLK 70s come with 12000 hr life out of the factory.

So with investment in upgrading at least two squadrons worth of jets to V standard, you can buy 15 years of further use, enhance your 150km+ BVR equipped numbers and make M2Ks, Mig29s, Jaguars, Tejas pretty much useless for IAF including being able to target smaller and larger drones that IAF will field.

In the next match you will need serious Air to Air missile numbers........to target manned and un manned jets because air defense will be busy tracking and shooting SCALP/Hammer/LORA/Brahmos.

So, 40-50million to get another 4000hrs of flight time. You still get a bvr missile that is inferior to the Pl15E and you get less flexibility to integrate weapons to it compared to other solutions?

Why not spend that 40-50 million to get 6000 hrs of flight time, with better bvr missiles and more flexibility to integrate weapons and a wider range of weapons from the manufacturer? Ie something like the J10CE? ( I don’t know the export price of the J35AE yet …but you have to ask how different would it be from a brand new F16V right now?)

The JF17 Block 2 outclasses with its SD10 currently outclasses everything in IAF except for the meteor in air to air combat. (Other mission profiles have a different scoring of course).

PAF has more probability of getting better bvr missiles from China than anywhere else on its fleet, and systems that will outclass anything anyone in the west will sell it.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[rafale]

So, 40-50million to get another 4000hrs of flight time. You still get a bvr missile that is inferior to the Pl15E and you get less flexibility to integrate weapons to it compared to other solutions?

Why not spend that 40-50 million to get 6000 hrs of flight time, with better bvr missiles and more flexibility to integrate weapons and a wider range of weapons from the manufacturer? Ie something like the J10CE? ( I don’t know the export price of the J35AE yet …but you have to ask how different would it be from a brand new F16V right now?)

The JF17 Block 2 outclasses with its SD10 currently outclasses everything in IAF except for the meteor in air to air combat. (Other mission profiles have a different scoring of course).

PAF has more probability of getting better bvr missiles from China than anywhere else on its fleet, and systems that will outclass anything anyone in the west will sell it.

More J-10CEs must be bought, there is no question or doubt over that.

however, investing in current F-16s, at least the newly bought BLK52s ensures their service continuation for next 15 years. Why would you want to simply waste that?

How many Pakistan wants to upgrade and should upgrade that is debatable upon the costs.....just like Pakistan originally intended 36 BLK 52s, but got 18 due to financial issues coming from earthquake........maybe PAF can only choose to upgrade the 18 BLK52s now.....and purchase more J-CEs for stop gap.

They key thing is, your F-16s infrastructure is already embedded......upgrading them to BLK70 standard will be less learning curve than the units that will convert from existing Mirages/F-7PGs squadron to J-10CEs.

Like i said, F-16 upgrades aren't bad for a quick uptick in capabilities of a platform that has been embedded for decades in PAF

 

[Starlord]

F-16's can still be used to bomb TTP/BLA, I think we should just get 1 sq of J-10CE, and save up to the J-35's. Unless USA is offering a reasonable package or CSF for the upgrade of All F-16's to V standards along with option to buy 18 New Block 70's. But again not at full price which I doubt we can afford but J-10's makes more sense at this point, they are tested against IAF top fighter aka Rafale, and there is no actual combat experience of any F-16 against Rafale in the world so why risk it?

 

[rafale]

F-16's can still be used to bomb TTP/BLA, I think we should just get 1 sq of J-10CE, and save up to the J-35's. Unless USA is offering a reasonable package or CSF for the upgrade of All F-16's to V standards along with option to buy 18 New Block 70's. But again not at full price which I doubt we can afford but J-10's makes more sense at this point, they are tested against IAF top fighter aka Rafale, and there is no actual combat experience of any F-16 against Rafale in the world so why risk it?

Hi,

New F-16 BLK 70s shouldn't be bought, because in that case more J-10CEs is no brainer.

Upgrades can be done to preserve your BLK52s for the next 15 years.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Hi,

New F-16 BLK 70s shouldn't be bought, because in that case more J-10CEs is no brainer.

Upgrades can be done to preserve your BLK52s for the next 15 years.

PAF is still flying F7's and Mirages as old as my grandad. Why not get the F16s to replace those jets asap, and what ever "new" money comes up is used for J10CE ?

Advantage of this is the F16s present a quantum leap of capability over the F7s/Mirages and don't need an upgrade as well to take over their roles ? Infrastructure is kept, etc.

How can we talk about upgrading F16s when we still have F7s/Mirages still flying, and we can get newer and more capable airframes for the same money it costs to upgrade the F16 ?

Surely F16-> F7/Mirage replacement asap, and new J10CE is more capability/bang for the buck for PAF, than F16 upgrade + keep F7/Mirages flying ? PAF does not have enough money to upgrade F16s and also purchase J10CEs to take over F7/Mirages and still pretend to fund the PFX, purchase J-35AEs.

 

[rafale]

PAF is still flying F7's and Mirages as old as my grandad. Why not get the F16s to replace those jets asap, and what ever "new" money comes up is used for J10CE ?

Advantage of this is the F16s present a quantum leap of capability over the F7s/Mirages and don't need an upgrade as well to take over their roles ? Infrastructure is kept, etc.

How can we talk about upgrading F16s when we still have F7s/Mirages still flying, and we can get newer and more capable airframes for the same money it costs to upgrade the F16 ?

Surely F16-> F7/Mirage replacement asap, and new J10CE is more capability/bang for the buck for PAF, than F16 upgrade + keep F7/Mirages flying ? PAF does not have enough money to upgrade F16s and also purchase J10CEs to take over F7/Mirages and still pretend to fund the PFX, purchase J-35AEs.

.....with Saudis willing, money issue can be solved in the short term........couple of billion USD for PAF CAPEX is chump change for them..........interesting times......my take is, if PAF is allowed F-16V upgrades, it will go for it.

 

[Ali_Baba]

.....with Saudis willing, money issue can be solved in the short term........couple of billion USD for PAF CAPEX is chump change for them..........interesting times......my take is, if PAF is allowed F-16V upgrades, it will go for it.

Saudi's are not an open cheque. That is the fantasy money, the same fantasy as Pakistan has oil, to solve all its issues. Lets not write cheques for cash that has not turned up, and may never. You have to plan, and work with what you have got.

I am of the view that a F16V upgrade is a big fundamental strategic mistake for the PAF that will leave the PAF with less overall military capability, then to retire the F7/Mirages with the F16 fleet and then go for more J10CEs.

We are left with
Option A) Retire F7s and Mirages with F16 fleet with no F16 upgrade and buy J10CEs with the cost of the upgrade.
Options B) Keep flying F7s and Mirages, and upgrade the F16s to V standard for another 15 years.

Each option has a pro and a con .. if people have other ideas for options, lets have'em.

PAF normally is quite sensible with its very money, so lets see which way it goes.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[ghazi52]

 

[ghazi52]

 

[ghazi52]