JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[Michael]

are you sure about WS-21 price between 14-16million? that is almost half the price of JF-17 block 3? i dont think these engine will be that much expensive? does WS-21 have more power generation i mean electricity conversion ? from WS-13? or its life has been extended? or it has some stealth features? why are WS-21 so much expensive than WS-13 ?

Clear news:
Pakistan has already purchased one WS-21 engine in 2024. The transaction currency is RMB, and the unit price is 100 million RMB.

However, I don't know the purpose of this engine, nor do I know whether it is a training version, a scientific research version, or a mass-produced version.
If it is a training version or a scientific research version, then its price is generally much higher than the mass-produced version. Therefore, the mass-produced version is likely to be much lower.
If it is a mass-produced version, then the price of a single unit will also differ from the price of a bulk unit. If Pakistan purchases WS-21 engines in bulk, the actual transaction price will certainly be lower than this.

As for its performance data, I cannot provide any information.

According to relevant academic papers, the development direction of China's new fighter jets all involve significant electrical energy consumption. Therefore, the focus of engine development is to improve their power generation capacity. With the performance improvement of turbofan engines, the increased thrust generated is mostly converted into electricity rather than providing propulsion for the fighter.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Clear news:
Pakistan has already purchased one WS-21 engine in 2024. The transaction currency is RMB, and the unit price is 100 million RMB.

However, I don't know the purpose of this engine, nor do I know whether it is a training version, a scientific research version, or a mass-produced version.
If it is a training version or a scientific research version, then its price is generally much higher than the mass-produced version. Therefore, the mass-produced version is likely to be much lower.
If it is a mass-produced version, then the price of a single unit will also differ from the price of a bulk unit. If Pakistan purchases WS-21 engines in bulk, the actual transaction price will certainly be lower than this.

As for its performance data, I cannot provide any information.

According to relevant academic papers, the development direction of China's new fighter jets all involve significant electrical energy consumption. Therefore, the focus of engine development is to improve their power generation capacity. With the performance improvement of turbofan engines, the increased thrust generated is mostly converted into electricity rather than providing propulsion for the fighter.

maybe they are testing indegenously JF-17 block 3 with ws-21? with more electricity they maybe testing indegenous sub systems on JF-17 block 3?

 

[Michael]

maybe they are testing indegenously JF-17 block 3 with ws-21? with more electricity they maybe testing indegenous sub systems on JF-17 block 3?

I don't have any concrete information.

Your analysis is one of speculation. But I don't think it's valid. If the JF-17 series fighter jets were to undergo WS-21 engine matching tests, this could only be done at the CAC. Pakistan lacks the necessary testing facilities (testing facilities, technicians, relevant technology, etc.) for such testing.

Another speculation is that it might be used to train engine maintenance engineers. The WS-21 engine has been clearly identified as the engine for the FC-31/J-35 fighter jets. The PAF has also publicly announced plans to purchase the FC-31/J-35 fighter jets. Therefore, it makes sense to purchase an engine in advance for maintenance engineer training.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

I don't have any concrete information.

Your analysis is one of speculation. But I don't think it's valid. If the JF-17 series fighter jets were to undergo WS-21 engine matching tests, this could only be done at the CAC. Pakistan lacks the necessary testing facilities (testing facilities, technicians, relevant technology, etc.) for such testing.

Another speculation is that it might be used to train engine maintenance engineers. The WS-21 engine has been clearly identified as the engine for the FC-31/J-35 fighter jets. The PAF has also publicly announced plans to purchase the FC-31/J-35 fighter jets. Therefore, it makes sense to purchase an engine in advance for maintenance engineer training.

This makes sense. most probably this is the reason and maybe they will also use the same engine for PFX? but why so costly? even WS-10 is not that costly? maybe its a ""training version or a scientific research version" what version between these two will be needed for train engine maintenance? a scientific research version will only be bought to develop engine indegenously i guess? what is a training version if it is going to be used for training engine maintenance?

 

[Michael]

a scientific research version will only be bought to develop engine indegenously i guess? what is a training version if it is going to be used for training engine maintenance?

In the mechanical industry, when we develop new machines, we typically begin by hand-making a batch for various trials and tests. Because production quantities are so low and modifications are often required, we can't use dedicated molds or specialized tools to produce these parts. We're forced to resort to inefficient methods like handcrafting and 3D printing. This results in extremely high initial costs and low production efficiency.

Once we've fully finalized the product, we create dedicated molds and tools to quickly produce it. This significantly reduces costs and increases production efficiency. Even certain materials may be used differently.

For example, stamping, a common process in the mechanical industry, is only used in the production of mass-produced products. If we need to produce a similar process during the trial phase, we have to use CNC or 3D printing. The production cost of the same product will be dozens or even hundreds of times higher.

These early hand-made products are often referred to as research versions.

Some of these products are specially processed and used as teaching aids for technician training. For example, some details are cut away to allow trainees to clearly see the internal structure; some parts are made into transparent windows; and some parts are made into replaceable parts... These teaching aids have lost their normal function. (These teaching aids can also be made from mass-produced versions.)

Due to the extremely high production costs of these two special versions, they are generally much more expensive than the mass-produced versions.

 

[Desprado123]

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[Toxic]

@arslank01 I don't really understand where you are coming from with that take, The Block 3 nowadays is openly being marketed with the PL-15E. Your take is based on the May 7th skirmish and the JF-17 not achieving kills but that really doesn't prove anything, J-10Cs made up nearly half of the flying strength that night so its likely more of them were in a better position to achieve those kills.

 

[rafale]

masla ye hai, kay unh ka attitude aisa he ke humaray upar ehsaan kar rahey hai, kohi chanda de rahey hain lol.

Actually, China aap par ehsaan hie keraha hai.

Please tell us which other country is outrightly willing to sell you top tier weapons right now? There is no one out there. Chinese have been bank rolling loans and delivering right when needed.

There is literally billions of USD in interest and delayed payments of Chinese IPPs stuck in Pakistan. It creates a very bad image on investors, their lenders and their CEOs of such companies if they cannot guarantee consistent on time cash flows. You have probably not worked with large Chinese corporations ( I have BTW) and i have literally seen them move the earth to get shit done that literally no contractor in the world can pull off. Their State owned companies like State Grid, Shanghai Electric, CMEC, HEI, DongFang, CNNC, CNPC, Three Gorges, China State Railways etc etc etc are absolute behemoths. They can chew any European or American contractor in similar industry and not even burp.

The thing is, when your investments/payments don't come on time, the CEOs are held accountable. They have insane level of competitive bureaucratic leadership at the top directly selected by the communist party, not the chut retired generals and babus like Pakistani state owned ventures. They are answerable to their superiors.

So AVIC doesn't care whether Pakistan buys J-10 or not. It cares that it gets its money ex-Works.

So if Pakistan finances the loan, then the bank giving that loan has to make sure payments are coming in on time and knowing the dearth of cash Pakistan has, Pakistan constantly delays the payments. There is only certain extent to which Chinese government will intervene. Their companies are extremely competitive.

So yea, they have been helping you and supporting you a lot. A lot more than what Pakistan can offer in return.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

In the mechanical industry, when we develop new machines, we typically begin by hand-making a batch for various trials and tests. Because production quantities are so low and modifications are often required, we can't use dedicated molds or specialized tools to produce these parts. We're forced to resort to inefficient methods like handcrafting and 3D printing. This results in extremely high initial costs and low production efficiency.

Once we've fully finalized the product, we create dedicated molds and tools to quickly produce it. This significantly reduces costs and increases production efficiency. Even certain materials may be used differently.

For example, stamping, a common process in the mechanical industry, is only used in the production of mass-produced products. If we need to produce a similar process during the trial phase, we have to use CNC or 3D printing. The production cost of the same product will be dozens or even hundreds of times higher.

These early hand-made products are often referred to as research versions.

Some of these products are specially processed and used as teaching aids for technician training. For example, some details are cut away to allow trainees to clearly see the internal structure; some parts are made into transparent windows; and some parts are made into replaceable parts... These teaching aids have lost their normal function. (These teaching aids can also be made from mass-produced versions.)

Due to the extremely high production costs of these two special versions, they are generally much more expensive than the mass-produced versions.

Thank you for your time and answer.

 

[Ak01]

@arslank01 I don't really understand where you are coming from with that take, The Block 3 nowadays openly being marketed with the PL-15E. Your take is based on the May 7th skirmish and the JF-17 not achieving kills but that really doesn't prove anything, J-10Cs made up nearly half of the flying strength that night so its likely more of them were in a better position to achieve those kills.

Id like to be proven wrong, lets hope i can be, but i am skeptical to say the least. Something is not as straightforward as it seems.

But also, no, my take is not based on that, its based on the broader context, the PL12AE, and also the entire situation with the PL-15 prior to J-10C buy.

 

[Ak01]

Actually, China aap par ehsaan hie keraha hai.

Please tell us which other country is outrightly willing to sell you top tier weapons right now? There is no one out there. Chinese have been bank rolling loans and delivering right when needed.

US, Europe, Turkey, South Korea. Literally everyone but Russia and Israel.

There is literally billions of USD in interest and delayed payments of Chinese IPPs stuck in Pakistan. It creates a very bad image on investors, their lenders and their CEOs of such companies if they cannot guarantee consistent on time cash flows. You have probably not worked with large Chinese corporations ( I have BTW) and i have literally seen them move the earth to get shit done that literally no contractor in the world can pull off. Their State owned companies like State Grid, Shanghai Electric, CMEC, HEI, DongFang, CNNC, CNPC, Three Gorges, China State Railways etc etc etc are absolute behemoths. They can chew any European or American contractor in similar industry and not even burp.

The thing is, when your investments/payments don't come on time, the CEOs are held accountable. They have insane level of competitive bureaucratic leadership at the top directly selected by the communist party, not the chut retired generals and babus like Pakistani state owned ventures. They are answerable to their superiors.

So AVIC doesn't care whether Pakistan buys J-10 or not. It cares that it gets its money ex-Works.

So if Pakistan finances the loan, then the bank giving that loan has to make sure payments are coming in on time and knowing the dearth of cash Pakistan has, Pakistan constantly delays the payments. There is only certain extent to which Chinese government will intervene. Their companies are extremely competitive.

So yea, they have been helping you and supporting you a lot. A lot more than what Pakistan can offer in return.

this slave mindset is pretty pathetic. You think the Chinese are doing it out of the kindness of their heart lol? If they were giving more than they were getting, they wouldnt do it...

 

[jamal18]

Clear news:
Pakistan has already purchased one WS-21 engine in 2024. The transaction currency is RMB, and the unit price is 100 million RMB.

However, I don't know the purpose of this engine, nor do I know whether it is a training version, a scientific research version, or a mass-produced version.
If it is a training version or a scientific research version, then its price is generally much higher than the mass-produced version. Therefore, the mass-produced version is likely to be much lower.
If it is a mass-produced version, then the price of a single unit will also differ from the price of a bulk unit. If Pakistan purchases WS-21 engines in bulk, the actual transaction price will certainly be lower than this.

As for its performance data, I cannot provide any information.

According to relevant academic papers, the development direction of China's new fighter jets all involve significant electrical energy consumption. Therefore, the focus of engine development is to improve their power generation capacity. With the performance improvement of turbofan engines, the increased thrust generated is mostly converted into electricity rather than providing propulsion for the fighter.

£ 10 million for one engine?

 

[gamaji]

US, Europe, Turkey, South Korea. Literally everyone but Russia and Israel.


this slave mindset is pretty pathetic.

With an exception of Turkiye, none of those countries is willing to do ToT at even the lowest level - leave alone interface source code needed for other weapons/munitions integration. Pak has acquired a number of systems from China with some ToT and then improved on it locally to get better versions of the systems. Heck, Pakistan has asked China to make Pakistan specific changes in many big items before Pak acquired those items. Who in world would allow you to do that?

On top of that the price of equivalent western systems is much higher. Do you think Pakistan could have acquired so many different systems from the west at all even if they, for the sake of argument, would have allowed Pak to get the high tech weapons?

Can you tell us all why PAF cannot use F-16s for offensive ops against India? Chinese weapons have no attached strings.

I think you need to use your brain and stop this BS against Chinese defense systems.

 

[Ak01]

Can you tell us all why PAF cannot use F-16s for offensive ops against India? Chinese weapons have no attached strings.

Id like you to tell me who did the US sell us the largest export AMRAAM order for...? taliban?

 

[Ak01]

With an exception of Turkiye, none of those countries is willing to do ToT to even lowest level leave alone source code for interface. Pak has acquired a number of systems from China with some ToT and then improved on it locally to get better versions of the systems. Heck, Pakistan has asked China to make Pakistan specific changes in many big items before we acquired those items. Who is world would allow you to do that?

Germany: sold PAF all the stuff needed to do domestic upgrades to MPDR's, upgrading them into modern AESA arrays. Optronics for PAF's UAV fleet, Sub fleet. Air defence also on the cards. Submarines on the table.

Saab: Sold PAF Erieyes, which are integrated and modified to suit PAF operational needs. Not to mention other equiptment still on the table.

France: Literally tried to transfer the entire Mirage F1 production line to Pakistan- ToT of Agosta class, support for the program to this day. +Life support systems for JF-17. Heck, they even created a custom scorpene variant for Pakistan.

Spain: EW systems for the JF-17, HIT's AIMS is a spanish system.

Italy: Frigates, Submarines, Air defence, EW, Radars, etc...

UK: Literally offered PAF their Tranche 1 typhoons for free, alongside a new build typhoon deal.

Korea: Artillery, Aircraft, sensors all on offer.

USA: Literally basically built a huge chunk of PAF's ASR network via TPS77's and then a follow up sale of TPS77MRR in the previous trump admin. Also literally offered to sell F-16V's to PAF. Not to mention is targeting more aircraft sales to the PAF.

Chinese ToT- JF-17 assembly- not even ToT, Hangor i guess? HIT had some SERIOUS qualms with the Haider project @Lion and their 'TOT'.

Stop the dickriding, You're a customer for China, the same as you are for all these other states, transferring tech is ONLY possible if you can ABSORB the tech lol. Good call, Pak should request ToT for Typhoons, will we produce them at the roadside ?