Afghan Refugees op/ed by Ambassador Tariq Osman Hyder

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

Meanwhile Torkham

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[Watandar]

Explain why all the countries in Eurasia and Africa do not have birthright citizenship

Because they use a different method, citizenship via blood descent, called jus sanguinis Two major systems of awarding citizenship in this world, jus solis and jus sanguinis. Pakistan belongs in the jus solis category.

 

[Watandar]

The constitution doesn't allow children of enemy aliens.

Pakistan constitution awards unrestricted birthright citizenship. Nobody has declared Afghan refugees enemy alien either. You are on shaky ground. Read this article

Jus soli - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pakistan has accepted a small part of the total afghan refugees (POR) with limitations. Limitations that they broke, like illegally buying properties using proxies, engaging in illegal trade using proxies, non UNHCR education etc. They were supposed to remain in camps and under UNHCR umbrella, they broke the deal long ago. Even the most liberal countries denaturalize citizens for engaging in crimes like these. Let alone non citizens.

Denaturalization does not apply to those awarded birthright citizenship. Its only for those who naturalize to a country and could be de-naturalized only if they possess another country's citizenship. This is done to prevent stateless people. The children of refugees do not face the restrictions you are claiming.

Come of it. Anyone can Google Demographics statistics for key western cities. Just take London. Looks like mandi bahauddin. 55% non white. Canada looks like Lucknow. Frankfort looks like Kabul.

The worse thing is that these immigrants don't even bother to integrate. They continue with their tribal hostilities abroad. Indians and Pakistanis fought street battles in Leicester couple of years ago. Afghans regularly fight with Pakistanis at stadiums, from UAE to UK. And regular knife each other in Germany.

A generation or two, they get into second and third tier political power and use that to engage in tribal geo politics back home. Net negative.

You have been watching too many right wing podcasts and have obviously never been abroad. All immigrant communities have bad actors, but Pakistanis or Indians abroad form successful communities that are able to integrate into the new society while retaining their culture. The same goes for the Turks in Germany, most of them are peaceful and productive members of society. These immigrant communities would not exist in such numbers if the West had never colonized their lands in the first place.

Fencing was never to stop anyone. It was to slow them down enough for border forces to react to mass scale attacks. The entire destructions of multiple tashkeels near the border is thanks to that fence. Albiet it needs to be manned properly.

As for the rest, this is where "it is impossible" bunch try to undermine efforts and tell Pakistan to bend over and take it instead. Yes, some might return, but that's better than letting every afghan in and giving everyone already here citizenship.

Fencing never slowed down anyone as it does not cover the entire border, which is mountainous. The evidence is the continuing unrestricted flow of migrants, militants, weapons, dollars and smuggled goods. Even livestock continues to be smuggled! If the fence was effective, it would have reduced smuggling which is a main source of corruption in the Pakistani state.

Deportations is a longe term policy not a short term one. Keep deporting, wether millions are here or dozens are here. Eventually the numbers go down to a reasonable level.

You can deport people to a war torn country run by fundamentalist regime that crushes their rights, they will just come right back , as has happened many many times. Only a peaceful Afghanistan that is improving will attract refugees back to it. Pakistani policymakers have been following opposite policy and stroking the fire in Afghanistan for last 50 years, that means there are going to be refugees in Afghanistan's neighbors.

As for ID cards, yes, Afghans in Nadra, especially in chaman, are a problem but not an unfixable one. Illegal Afghans with IDs don't have family trees in the database. One system heck will cough out most of them. Again, something "it's not possible" bunch would like us not to do in the first place. One might wonder regarding their true intentions.

Point fingers at the corrupt system in Pakistan that awards documents to anyone with cash, if you have the cajones to do so.

Divide and rule will not work here in this matter. Pakistanis overwhelming stand with the system against the illegal settlers form Afghanistan as far as mass deportations are concerned.

And last, if "it's not possible", why are they so worried?

Pakistanis have been taking it in the rear from the "System" since 1950's and will continue taking it as they are ready for any form of abuse from Sahabji. Only a peaceful Afghanistan which is trading with Pakistan is the solution, the option of war has been utilized for last 50 years by dumb faujis is another one of their giant failures.

 

[krash]

An ethno nat is an ethnonat. Just because he is born here doesn't mean he hates Pakistanis any less.

A child is nothing of anything, by law and religion. It is the society and government's responsibility to provide a conducive environment. Even if they were, it does not forfeit their rights, including of citizenship.

Also, the host country regime is more concerned with bribes. If we stupidly enough grant birth right citizenship, everyone and their mother in Afghanistan can claim to be born here in Pakistan. There is no way to distinguish them from those actually born here. And with a bribe to Nadra, everyone of will get citizenship in matter of a decade like half of barmal district of Afghanistan https://tolonews.com/afghanistan/half-barmal-district-residents-‘hold-pakistani-id-cards’

Why can't they bribe their way into citizenship as is? We also already have documentation of who was born here. Regardless, we cannot deny the rights of one in order to deter another or to cover our own inadequacies.

I rather we not start another fiasco like we did in 80s when we refused to limit these people to enclosed concentration camps.

TBF, we should have handled it much better. The Afghan refugees, admittedly in large part due to their own idiocy, were never really given a chance to assimilate into the Pakistani society or economy. Crime and hate spread easier in marginalized and socio-economically weak circles. There are African refugees in Pakistan whom you can't tell apart from a Pakistani if it weren't for the color of their skin.


Don't get me wrong. I am well aware and resentful of the nonsensical ethno-nationalistic venom and security risk many Afghans pose, as I am of the nonsensical ethno-nationalistic venom and security risk that many Pakistanis pose. It still does not forfeit any of their rights or our responsibility of protecting those rights. They are Pakistani by birth right.... just the hand that we were dealt. Now that they are one of us, by law and morality, it's better to focus our efforts on helping them through or punishing them for their failings, as we should with any other Pakistani.

With all due respect, @krash is projecting his Canadian liberal bias on a fundamentally different society and fundamentally different set of immigrants all the way onto a Pakistan that is structurally and socio-economically worlds apart.

Given what Pakistanis have done to Pakistan, it would be wise now to open up to foreign ideas.

Jokes aside, what is right is right in every part of the world. Circumstances and geography don't allow us freedom of interpretation. Birth Right Citizenship was enshrined in our constitution in 1951, surprisingly without any foreign or liberal influence.

He has consistently made objectively false statements based purely on arrogant assumptions typically associated with Western leftists.

Would've served you better had you pointed out the "objectively false statements based purely on arrogant assumptions".

The idea that being born on a land instantly makes you detached from your original country, culture or loyalty to place of origin has been proven false on an industrial scale — globally.

Strawman. We should also be weary of presenting that false argument given our own immigrant statuses.

And for Pakistan suffering from constrained resources and overpopulation, as well as a direct national security threat from a hostile Afghanistan that explicitly uses demographic warfare as a weapon — what he advocates for is national suicide.

I know for sure that my area of Pakistan would never accept it. If this is done, JKLF would get a MAJOR boost. Separatism would rise. And I believe the same sentiment exists in Sindh and Punjab, as well as amongst Balochs. I can't speak for Pashtuns, perhaps it's split between urban vs rural.

Doesn't matter how anyone anywhere feels about it or the perceived consequences. You do not get to deny anyone what is rightfully theirs. Your job is of fixing the issue after protecting that right.

They are illegal by virtue of how nature ordained things.

Nature ordained them to be born in Pakistan with citizenship as their birth right. Let's not waste good meaningless rhetoric here.

Look at the map and tell me what is wrong

The link did not work

Trump wants to end birthright citizenship. Where do other countries stand?

The US has historically given automatic citizenship to anyone born in the country, but this principle is not the norm globally.

www.bbc.com

What's wrong with it?

 

[Rational Philosopher]

A child is nothing of anything, by law and religion. It is the society and government's responsibility to provide a conducive environment. Even if they were, it does not forfeit their rights, including of citizenship.



Why can't they bribe their way into citizenship as is? We also already have documentation of who was born here. Regardless, we cannot deny the rights of one in order to deter another or to cover our own inadequacies.



TBF, we should have handled it much better. The Afghan refugees, admittedly in large part due to their own idiocy, were never really given a chance to assimilate into the Pakistani society or economy. Crime and hate spread easier in marginalized and socio-economically weak circles. There are African refugees in Pakistan whom you can't tell apart from a Pakistani if it weren't for the color of their skin.


Don't get me wrong. I am well aware and resentful of the nonsensical ethno-nationalistic venom and security risk many Afghans pose, as I am of the nonsensical ethno-nationalistic venom and security risk that many Pakistanis pose. It still does not forfeit any of their rights or our responsibility of protecting those rights. They are Pakistani by birth right.... just the hand that we were dealt. Now that they are one of us, by law and morality, it's better to focus our efforts on helping them through or punishing them for their failings, as we should with any other Pakistani.



Given what Pakistanis have done to Pakistan, it would be wise now to open up to foreign ideas.

Jokes aside, what is right is right in every part of the world. Circumstances and geography don't allow us freedom of interpretation. Birth Right Citizenship was enshrined in our constitution in 1951, surprisingly without any foreign or liberal influence.



Would've served you better had you pointed out the "objectively false statements based purely on arrogant assumptions".



Strawman. We should also be weary of presenting that false argument given our own immigrant statuses.



Doesn't matter how anyone anywhere feels about it or the perceived consequences. You do not get to deny anyone what is rightfully theirs. Your job is of fixing the issue after protecting that right.



Nature ordained them to be born in Pakistan with citizenship as their birth right. Let's not waste good meaningless rhetoric here.



What's wrong with it?

You quite literally have zero arguments or anything of logical substance apart from passing basic grey-zone moralist statements like "it is our responsibility, it is the moral thing to do" — none of which have any meaning in this discussion about whether it is a smart choice to make or not.

The only real argument you keep pushing is a law which grants them citizenship, and that too is already being challenged legally. (With deportations legally ongoing)

If this law is amended and removed, which is the current plan, you will have to submit to it by your own logic with no opposition because your guiding morality is a piece of paper that changes whenever the people will it to.

Basically you wrote a massive nothing burger!

 

[Watandar]

You quite literally have zero arguments or anything of logical substance apart from passing basic grey-zone moralist statements like "it is our responsibility, it is the moral thing to do" — none of which have any meaning in this discussion about whether it is a smart choice to make or not.

The only real argument you keep pushing is a law which grants them citizenship, and that too is already being challenged legally. (With deportations legally ongoing)

If this law is amended and removed, which is the current plan, you will have to submit to it by your own logic with no opposition because your guiding morality is a piece of paper that changes whenever the people will it to.

Basically you wrote a massive nothing burger!

Law and constitution may be a nothingburger to you, but they aren't to civilized people. Morality is also practiced by civilized societies. The Afghan refugees are in Pakistan because of 50 years of war, a war that Pakistani state participated in whole heartedly. These internationally recognized refugees have both international and domestic law on their side.

If the law is amended or repealed, it will change very little as these refugees and their children are already grandfathered in. Since the constitution and 1951 nationality law remain in effect, what is there to even discuss ??

Afghan refugees, militancy and drugs all over Pakistan are the price of "straategic daapth".

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Law and constitution may be a nothingburger to you, but they aren't to civilized people. Morality is also practiced by civilized societies. The Afghan refugees are in Pakistan because of 50 years of war, a war that Pakistani state participated in whole heartedly. These internationally recognized refugees have both international and domestic law on their side.

If the law is amended or repealed, then we can discuss. So far nothing has happened and birthright citizenship and 1951 nationality law remain in effect.

Afghan refugees are the price of "straategic daapth".

Law and constitution are worth less than the paper they are written on when they go against the public's desire and interests.

Afghan refugees have themselves to blame for initiating wars against their neighbour and destroying themselves in the process. Too much Pata Khazana has side effects and consequences and you are looking at them.

 

[Watandar]

Law and constitution are worth less than the paper they are written on when they go against the public's desire and interests.

Afghan refugees have themselves to blame for initiating wars against their neighbour and destroying themselves in the process. Too much Pata Khazana has side effects and consequences and you are looking at them.

Law and constitution are never worthless and if the public indeed has this desire as you claim, then let them amend the constitution and laws. By the way these amendments wont make a difference as they are never retroactive.

Afghanistan was destroyed by Soviet invasion and occupation, followed by civil war , followed by American invasion and occupation. Pakistan contributed enthusiastically in each of these wars and cannot escape the consequences as its a neighboring country and not some place oceans away. The Pakhtun nationalists that this forum loves to abuse had warned Zia ul Haq of the potential consequences of getting involved in Afghanistan and as expected, were laughed off and called traitors. Who is laughing now ?

What goes around, comes around.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Law and constitution are never worthless and if the public indeed has this desire as you claim, then let them amend the constitution and laws. By the way these amendments wont make a difference as they are never retroactive.

Afghanistan was destroyed by Soviet invasion and occupation, followed by civil war , followed by American invasion and occupation. Pakistan contributed enthusiastically in each of these wars and cannot escape the consequences as its a neighboring country and not some place oceans away. The Pakhtun nationalists that this forum loves to abuse had warned Zia ul Haq of the potential consequences of getting involved in Afghanistan and as expected, were laughed off and called traitors. Who is laughing now ?

What goes around, comes around.

Clearly a very poor understanding of history but this is what a perpetual victim complex gets you unfortunately. I can only laugh at it. Anyway the deportations are continuing and they have the public's support, that's all that matters.

"We wuz Loy Afghanistan" to "We wuz innocent refugees in Pakistan" with "hooman rights" is a very funny pipeline to have. One would have shame but you cannot find that in Afghans, because "we wuz victims" (of their own Zionist-esque warmongering of course)

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Afghanistan was destroyed by Soviet invasion and occupation, followed by civil war , followed by American invasion and occupation. Pakistan contributed enthusiastically in each of these wars and cannot escape the consequences as its a neighboring country and not some place oceans away. The Pakhtun nationalists that this forum loves to abuse had warned Zia ul Haq of the potential consequences of getting involved in Afghanistan and as expected, were laughed off and called traitors. Who is laughing now ?

Lol, there's something really funny here.

You claim Afghanistan was destroyed by a Soviet invasion and then say "Pakhtun nationalists had warned of getting involved", this is funny because they were all leftist socialists and there's a very infamous phrase one of them had said about welcoming Soviet tanks with flowers in Peshawar Was it good or bad thing now?

So are you really a victim? Be honest with yourself. You are just failed third-world Zionists

 

[Watandar]

Clearly a very poor understanding of history but this is what a perpetual victim complex gets you unfortunately. I can only laugh at it. Anyway the deportations are continuing and they have the public's support, that's all that matters.

"We wuz Loy Afghanistan" to "We wuz innocent refugees in Pakistan" with "hooman rights" is a very funny pipeline to have. One would have shame but you cannot find that in Afghans, because "we wuz victims" (of their own Zionist-esque warmongering of course)

I think its you who has the poor understanding of history and refuses to accept consequences of Pakistan's actions. The deportations movie has been seen many times before and the results are well known. The "deported" will come right back over the porous border because of continuing conflict in Afghanistan.

"Loy Afghanistan" nonsense does not apply to Pakistanis and is a distraction from 50 years of self-destructive policies followed by the Pakistani state that has resulted in saturating the country with refugees, drugs and Kalashnikov culture. Enjoy the fruits of these policies.

 

[Watandar]

Lol, there's something really funny here.

You claim Afghanistan was destroyed by a Soviet invasion and then say "Pakhtun nationalists had warned" is so funny because they were all leftist socialists and there's a very infamous phrase one of them had said about welcoming Soviet tanks with flowers in Peshawar

So are you really a victim? Be honest with yourself. You are just failed third-world Zionists

Zionists ? You are really grasping at straws here mister. Yes the Awami National Party had warned Zia ul Haq against supporting "Jehad" in Afghanistan and the potential negative consequnces and Zia's reply was that nothing to worry, we have a 500k army and can handle any problem. Zia proved utterly wrong and ANP proved right, would'nt you agree ?

These are just follies uptill 1989, there is another 30 years of stupidity of the Pakistani state we can discuss too.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

"Loy Afghanistan" nonsense does not apply to Pakistanis and is a distraction from 50 years of self-destructive policies followed by the Pakistani state that has resulted in saturating the country with refugees, drugs and Kalashnikov culture. Enjoy the fruits of these policies.

Loy Afghanistan ideology was literally the basis of what initiated bad relations and the proxy wars (including the Soviet invasion) between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

It is the fundamental driver. Not only are you wrong, but you are a liar who wants to deflect blame.

And yes I enjoyed the fruits of the policy. Afghanistan is a destroyed shithole, invaded twice, and the strong expansionists are begging to be citizens of my country while being deported.

 

[krash]

I by no means encourage attacking any Pakistani community but @Asfandyar Bhittani did raise a valid point there.

Why should the liberal (guilt) complex of overseas Pakistanis override the safety and interests of the actually 200 million+ Pakistani citizens actually inside Pakistan? Their feelings shouldn't hold Pakistani policy making as hostage. Especially if they are totally oblivious to actual local dynamics.

Yes, instead we should run it by the nonsensical insecurities of hypocritical foreign Pakistanis who have little to no understanding of liberalism or that right, rights, and law do not care for them or the "local dynamics".

You quite literally have zero arguments or anything of logical substance apart from passing basic grey-zone moralist statements like "it is our responsibility, it is the moral thing to do" — none of which have any meaning in this discussion about whether it is a smart choice to make or not.

The only real argument you keep pushing is a law which grants them citizenship, and that too is already being challenged legally. (With deportations legally ongoing)

All law is based on morality.....Logically, I could probably find a few dozen smart reasons to stop you from wearing the color blue. Don't get to do it, though.

PS: If the law grants them citizenship then their deportation is illegal by definition.

If this law is amended and removed, which is the current plan, you will have to submit to it by your own logic with no opposition because your guiding morality is a piece of paper that changes whenever the people will it to.

Basically you wrote a massive nothing burger!

Until it is, will you "submit to it with no opposition"?

As I've mentioned before, birth right citizenship is the logical and moral right of any and every child born in the country. If the law denies it then I will argue against that law, as any responsible citizen should.

Law and constitution are worth less than the paper they are written on when they go against the public's desire and interests.

The constitution is what gives you everything you are and have. Without it you are not a Pakistani, have no rights, and are essentially nothing. I can whip up public desire and interest against you in a couple of minutes. I don't believe you're a valuable participant in this discussion given your lack of any understanding with regards to law.

 

[Watandar]

Loy Afghanistan ideology was literally the basis of what initiated bad relations and the proxy wars (including the Soviet invasion) between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

It is the fundamental driver. Not only are you wrong, but you are a liar who wants to deflect blame.

And yes I enjoyed the fruits of the policy. Afghanistan is a destroyed shithole, invaded twice, and the strong expansionists are begging to be citizens of my country while being deported.

Loy Afghanistan may have been a desire of few Afghan irredentists, it was never a major problem for Pakistan as Pakistani Pakhtuns and Baloch have their own strong identity and history. The few skirmishes with Afghanistan in 1950s and 1960's does not justify 50 years of full blown war that Pakistan engaged in Afghanistan post 1970s, which ended up hurting Pakistan enormously. Its called mishandling an issue.

The Afghans are not begging, they are already citizens of Pakistan and will remain citizens no matter how much you rage about it on the internet. The drugs and militancy and gangsterism that is the result of Afghan policy will also continue hurting Pakistan. Keep enjoying all of this.