Al - Haider VT-4 MBT - The Premier PA Ground Asset [Developments]

[Lion]

Well well well... So The Turks have paired a M60 with an electric drive train... A chinese user also posted a picture of mysterious hybrid tank a few months back... Seems like everyone got the picture except us... A PHEV with an electric drive train like the Nissan Note E-power... Would be optimal for Tank usage especially countries that don't have the metallurgical prowess to develop good gearboxes...

Tech demonstrators. They are not ready for large scale adoption or usage, especially in our theatre, and will not be for at least a decade or two.

 

[iron shrapnel]

Tech demonstrators. They are not ready for large scale adoption or usage, especially in our theatre, and will not be for at least a decade or two.

You have to start to get somewhere. Are we going to wait and then buy it off the shelf ? P.A/H.I.T has been very consistent in renaming vehicles recently ... we are upto FAARIS... Up next BOHEMIA...

 

[Lion]

You have to start to get somewhere. Are we going to wait and then buy it off the shelf ? P.A/H.I.T has been very consistent in renaming vehicles recently ... we are upto FAARIS... Up next BOHEMIA...

I had a long discussion about the adoption of electric tanks on the older forum when the AbramsX was revealed; a shorter version can be seen here

Post in thread 'Al - Haider VT-4 MBT - The Premier PA Ground Asset [Developments]'

Nov 4, 2024

So shouldn't PA try to squeeze out a ToT from the Ukrainians considering their less than better circumstances? I'm not sure who we are trying to develop those 155s for but if those can be pledged for some technology transfer then why not.... I don't consider the soviet engines desirable but considering how it would be difficult to make adjustments as stated by you, should they choose this line ?... Another option for future AK modernization... Could we look into diesel electric hybrids with electric motor propulsion? I mean it is being used by a canadian firm for trucks...

• Lion

• 

I’ve said it before that the first and most important criteria for the mainstream adoption of any technology in the military is logistics, even if the technology is theoretically ready for hybrid or electric tanks, the logistics for it are not, not even for the US army. Unfortunately for us, we don’t have the funds to run experiments or design programs for things that will be relevant 30 years in the future, instead we need design programs for grassroots stuff…like microchips and engines perhaps.​

 

[Oscar]

Yes, BMS systems aren’t in every tank, they’re usually in a couple of tanks in a certain outfit (CO, XO etc.).

There’s the hardware for the BMS and the software for it. In older tanks such as the AK you need to add a special computer to run the BMS on, it’s basically a rugged laptop/tablet. In newer tanks the Commanders standard displays and computers will have this functionality built in (VT-4).

If a new BMS is introduced, as long as the older hardware is capable of running it, they can just run the new software on the older machines, or even make the older software compatible with the newer one. The programmers that work on these shouldn’t have an issue doing that because they’re on the same network.

The real problem with our older BMS systems wasn’t really capability, it was ergonomics, most mainstream military tech is a headache to use, this isn’t limited to Pakistan, even American and German tankers have admitted to not using many of the digitization features because they’re slow and annoying. I hope they new hardware and software is intuitive and fast enough to where commanders actually feel encouraged to use it.

I remember handling the AK display(poor resolution) with its rubberized buttons some 15 years ago as we integrated SDR for data tx so I would assume a lot has changed since then. But the issue then was not just ux but general “toughness” in the tank.

Boots, arms, gun butts(when being pulled in or out) tend to hit things here and there. Not every connector is secured perfectly and things break off.

 

[iron shrapnel]

I had a long discussion about the adoption of electric tanks on the older forum when the AbramsX was revealed; a shorter version can be seen here

Post in thread 'Al - Haider VT-4 MBT - The Premier PA Ground Asset [Developments]'

Nov 4, 2024

So shouldn't PA try to squeeze out a ToT from the Ukrainians considering their less than better circumstances? I'm not sure who we are trying to develop those 155s for but if those can be pledged for some technology transfer then why not.... I don't consider the soviet engines desirable but considering how it would be difficult to make adjustments as stated by you, should they choose this line ?... Another option for future AK modernization... Could we look into diesel electric hybrids with electric motor propulsion? I mean it is being used by a canadian firm for trucks...

• Lion

• 

I’ve said it before that the first and most important criteria for the mainstream adoption of any technology in the military is logistics, even if the technology is theoretically ready for hybrid or electric tanks, the logistics for it are not, not even for the US army. Unfortunately for us, we don’t have the funds to run experiments or design programs for things that will be relevant 30 years in the future, instead we need design programs for grassroots stuff…like microchips and engines perhaps.​

& In the quoted text I had talked about the ToT for engines from Ukraine as a feasible option.
No work on the microchip sector...
Had heard from someone close to IK about a battery cell manufacturing facility near PAC... The idea I think went out the window with the regime... In my opinion hybrid electric drive trains would simplify logistics & provide multiple benefits. I agree on the lack of funds part. Hopefully they can collect enough cash for ToT to future proof AK-1s.. I am pretty concerned for it's power plant and gearbox since the Russia-Ukraine war started...

 

[Lion]

I remember handling the AK display(poor resolution) with its rubberized buttons some 15 years ago as we integrated SDR for data tx so I would assume a lot has changed since then. But the issue then was not just ux but general “toughness” in the tank.

Boots, arms, gun butts(when being pulled in or out) tend to hit things here and there. Not every connector is secured perfectly and things break off.

Those old displays and systems stayed in use for far longer than they should have. Well…”in use” on paper. I can’t really say how much they were actually practiced with or incorporated into training.

I’ve not experienced then newer BMS systems much but from my limited experience they actually attempt to do less things just in a better way. Back then the concept of workload and human performance wasn’t considered as much in design, it’s still in its infancy locally but in more developed defense industries they actually consider what a tank commander will feasibly be able to use and gleam from the display in a high-stress environment. You get much simpler UI/UX, far simpler controls and language etc.

 

[Lion]

& In the quoted text I had talked about the ToT for engines from Ukraine as a feasible option.
No work on the microchip sector...
Had heard from someone close to IK about a battery cell manufacturing facility near PAC... The idea I think went out the window with the regime... In my opinion hybrid electric drive trains would simplify logistics & provide multiple benefits. I agree on the lack of funds part. Hopefully they can collect enough cash for ToT to future proof AK-1s.. I am pretty concerned for it's power plant and gearbox since the Russia-Ukraine war started...

The quoted text is showing the wrong post, click on it and it’ll take you to my reply to your post.

Electric drivetrains will certainly make logistics easier in the future, but certainly not right now, consider it this way, you can’t replace all your regular tanks with hybrids right now, so all the infrastructure and logistics and training required for them has to stay, now on Top of that you add batteries, chargers, battery infrastructure, battery techs etc etc etc and you seriously complicate logistics. Not to mention the massive redesigns, weight increases and other R&D that would be needed to retrofit unintended models with batteries.

Also, major point, but Western tanks are much easier to electrify than Chinese and Russian derived models. For one they don’t use auto-loaders and hence the space near the tank floor where batteries would go is empty, there is no such space in eastern tanks, secondly, they have much taller chassis and bigger fighting compartments to fit said batteries in, thirdly, they have one piece ammo as opposed to two piece ammo. It’s no coincidence we’ve only seen western tanks hybridized or electrified, or that Chinas attempt is with a completely redesigned model.

 

[Oscar]

Those old displays and systems stayed in use for far longer than they should have. Well…”in use” on paper. I can’t really say how much they were actually practiced with or incorporated into training.

I’ve not experienced then newer BMS systems much but from my limited experience they actually attempt to do less things just in a better way. Back then the concept of workload and human performance wasn’t considered as much in design, it’s still in its infancy locally but in more developed defense industries they actually consider what a tank commander will feasibly be able to use and gleam from the display in a high-stress environment. You get much simpler UI/UX, far simpler controls and language etc.

Quite frankly something we proposed even with basic LCDs on the Aselsan radios was why not use urdu unicode for basic functions?

It would be somewhat complicated to add into already scarce cpu cycles but could allow easier functioning.

Never left the evening chai discussion - not a requirement and for the most part those manpacks were to be used by generally english reading fellows.

 

[Lion]

Quite frankly something we proposed even with basic LCDs on the Aselsan radios was why not use urdu unicode for basic functions?

It would be somewhat complicated to add into already scarce cpu cycles but could allow easier functioning.

Never left the evening chai discussion - not a requirement and for the most part those manpacks were to be used by generally english reading fellows.

Interesting idea to use Urdu for the radios, I recall the original BMS systems having an Urdu language setting, it was quite extensive too, they had training tools for it in Urdu as well, one particular video showed a walkthrough of setting up waypoints for the tank and other tanks using the system.

 

[RafaleSlayer]

I had a long discussion about the adoption of electric tanks on the older forum when the AbramsX was revealed; a shorter version can be seen here

Post in thread 'Al - Haider VT-4 MBT - The Premier PA Ground Asset [Developments]'

Nov 4, 2024

So shouldn't PA try to squeeze out a ToT from the Ukrainians considering their less than better circumstances? I'm not sure who we are trying to develop those 155s for but if those can be pledged for some technology transfer then why not.... I don't consider the soviet engines desirable but considering how it would be difficult to make adjustments as stated by you, should they choose this line ?... Another option for future AK modernization... Could we look into diesel electric hybrids with electric motor propulsion? I mean it is being used by a canadian firm for trucks...

• Lion

• 

I’ve said it before that the first and most important criteria for the mainstream adoption of any technology in the military is logistics, even if the technology is theoretically ready for hybrid or electric tanks, the logistics for it are not, not even for the US army. Unfortunately for us, we don’t have the funds to run experiments or design programs for things that will be relevant 30 years in the future, instead we need design programs for grassroots stuff…like microchips and engines perhaps.​

not practical, how and where would you recharge the battery in the battle field?

 

[krash]

not practical, how and where would you recharge the battery in the battle field?

Modular battery packs will be the most probable solution, as batteries get smaller. Not there yet, though.

 

[Michael]

@Lion @krash
This is the latest promotional video from a Chinese arms dealer.
Note: This isn't CG; it features real weapons.
This video features weapons you've never seen before, weapons you've only dreamed of, and even weapons you might not think are possible.
For example: hybrid unmanned tank...

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This is a reposted video that is exactly the same as the official original video.

 

[farooqbhai]

@Lion @krash
This is the latest promotional video from a Chinese arms dealer.
Note: This isn't CG; it features real weapons.
This video features weapons you've never seen before, weapons you've only dreamed of, and even weapons you might not think are possible.
For example: hybrid unmanned tank...

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

This is a reposted video that is exactly the same as the official original video.

One of the LMs is in our service, dark angel one

 

[Michael]

One of the LMs is in our service, dark angel one

This video features a vast array of weapons and equipment, but many shots are fleeting. This makes it easy to overlook many details.

 

[Bilal]

One of the LMs is in our service, dark angel one

Feilong-60A I believe.