Army Chief tenure to reset with CDF appointment

[Blain2]

if you don't care about same old arguments then why are you proposing same old argument ? Your fantasy of a technocratic autocrat who can transform Pakistan into the next Singapore or Korea via authoritarian means is exactly what Pakistani army has been trying to do since 1950's, and failing. Some great leader or gentleman will magically arise from the populace (sarkari of course) and whip the unwashed masses into shape ? Never happened and isn't happening either.

Pakistan is too big, too diverse and too complex for the simplistic centralized authoritarianism we have been subjected to from the Establishment, from One Unit to Islamization to enlightened moderation to guided democracy to Hybrid to whatever.
I think we can conclude after the failure of all these experiments that Constitutionalism, institutions and eventual civilian political maturity is the only path.

Asim Muneer is just the latest fool who thinks he is The One.

He does not think that he is the ONE. You and others ascribe this to him.

Second, if Pakistan is too big, too diverse and too complex, what do you make of China?

By same old arguments, my point is that we have already discussed to death the pros and cons of democracy. I am just reflecting what can be salvaged with the dispensation on hand.

"from One Unit to Islamization to enlightened moderation to guided democracy to Hybrid to whatever."

Last, do you think the civilian government agendas were any different?

 

[SaadH]

Just wondering if you were in Pakistan or USA during General Zia Ul Haq era?
Asking because i lived the entirety of his era from 1979 to 1988. I remember Zulfiqar Bhutto's last speech. I remember Zia Ul Haq First speech and his funeral. I remember him and his era very differently.

Best era in Pakistani, desi landay kay khooni liberals' kryptonite...

 

[Blain2]

I can understand where you are coming from but as much as I want to buy into this Utopian dream I can't help but point out that a Utopia (even if for the sake of discussion) we assume can realistically exist - would require a "unifying ideology" - that is the realistic challenge in Pakistan's society - we don't have that unifying ideology and if we are to bring people into one forcefully - the whole Utopian dream will very quickly collapse into Fascism

It is the last thing from "utopia". It is reflecting the reality on the ground. For the last 2 weeks, posters here from PTI etc. have been saying "all power has been vested in the hands of one person".

I am just reflecting that if that is indeed the case then make it work to the country's advantage. Be a badmash and push a tough agenda through. I am under no illusion that miracles will happen but I am also sure if the focus is put on a few key aspects of national development, things can move faster with greater dividends.

I am looking at where we go from here, while many others are stuck in the right or wrong of it when the water is already under the bridge on that whole storyline.

 

[hnn]

It failed because of the half-hearted "benevolence" that gets in the way.

Constitutional/democratic system is just as dysfunctional for reasons known to all of us.

Unless you want to wait for yet another 20 years before something matures, keep at it.

While I agree that our democratic governments weren't very successful but neither were the military dictatorships. As much as I support the CDF change for the armed forces - the political side of it isn't as inspiring - and it is why I am hoping that where the CDF change takes the politics out of armed forces it doesn't put all of the armed forces into politics

And to quote a great movie here

"It's a pattern with generals. Every new one comes in, he thinks the last one was an idiot. 'I got this figured out. I see the big picture. He didn't see the big picture.' Then, about six months in... you realize the big picture is a mirage." - The War Machine

 

[Blain2]

While I agree that our democratic governments weren't very successful but neither were the military dictatorships. As much as I support the CDF change for the armed forces - the political side of it isn't as inspiring - and it is why I am hoping that where the CDF change takes the politics out of armed forces it doesn't put all of the armed forces into politics

And to quote a great movie here

"It's a pattern with generals. Every new one comes in, he thinks the last one was an idiot. 'I got this figured out. I see the big picture. He didn't see the big picture.' Then, about six months in... you realize the big picture is a mirage." - The War Machine

The second part applies to the whole of humanity, it isn't specific to the generals and it applies just the same to the uber-democrats and whatever sits in-between these two.

 

[Gripen9]

Absolutely horrific.

What's next, declaring himself Pharaoh?

Sisi has dibs on the Pharoah title.

 

[hnn]

I'd take a partial win. Get CPEC, NAP, Dams going with a lid on BLA/TTP.

This is where I agree with you and am hoping as well. The remainder of it I'm not holding my breath for - Utopia is a "stateless and classless" society i.e. Anarchism and it's an almost impossible human dream to think an Anarchaic Society can live in peace without conflict whether it is Anarcho-Communist or Anarcho-Socialist. AND anything that stops at less than the "stateless and classless" society has a very high affinity to become Authoritarian - as in the case for Lenninist/Stalinist Russia

 

[Gripen9]

It has nothing to do with their personal integrity. CDF is needed for higher defense planning. Any chief not going along would actually be doing a disservice to Pakistan's security. Your issue is with the person of Asim Munir, not the concept of the CDF which is needed.

Take the man out of the equation and look at the validity of the concept. It is sound but will require some further optimizations as they roll it out.

So what was the role of Chairman Joint Chief of Staff?

 

[Meengla]

He does not think that he is the ONE. You and others ascribe this to him.
Second, if Pakistan is too big, too diverse and too complex, what do you make of China?
By same old arguments, my point is that we have already discussed to death the pros and cons of democracy. I am just reflecting what can be salvaged with the dispensation on hand.
"from One Unit to Islamization to enlightened moderation to guided democracy to Hybrid to whatever."
Last, do you think the civilian government agendas were any different?

Bolded part.
70% people of Pakistan NOT voted for the Messiah Khan and from the discussions about the upcoming changes over the last many days, there is a lot of 'give and take' that went into drafting the 27 Const. Amendment. What Pakistan in the current setup has is certainly not some Saddam's Iraq; there are many parties/pressure groups existing both within and outside of the Parliament. But you know what: Because a certain guy is not in power that's why nothing is good and that's where the criticism is coming from
But dogs may bark while the caravan will march.

 

[Gripen9]

He has not done anything like that, but NS and co has done it.
This image of monster was created to protect and serve the kinds of NS, Zardari and corrupt Generals.

Yeah he conveniently forgot Nawajo n Co storming the supreme court or heading the lawyers march for the corrupt Iftikhar Chaudhry....

 

[hnn]

Second, if Pakistan is too big, too diverse and too complex, what do you make of China?

China is big, yes but compared to Pakistan it isn't diverse in the same sense. 92% is Han Ethnic Group. The other 55 ethnic groups only make 8% of total population. The main language is Mandarin and the small group of Hokkien speaking Southerners aren't at the same status as Mandarin speaking ones. Besides, they already flushed out the Nationalists to Taiwan so Chinese society is majorly homogenous to have a unifying ideology.

Last, do you think the civilian government agendas were any different?

No but that is where we need to improve our political system instead of overriding it. For example, if CDF along with the current government lays foundation to grassroot political ideology development that'd be great. Our politicians are stupid because they are landlords. They don't have a political ideology other than Nepotism or Oligarchy and that's why they didn't do any better than the Military Dictatorships - instead of working in the interest of public, they worked to maintain their elitist self intersts (something military does too )

 

[hnn]

It is the last thing from "utopia".

You kinda did make it seem like Utopia in the original post the latter position of "partial victory" - I already agreed with

 

[Blain2]

So what was the role of Chairman Joint Chief of Staff?

A better question would be, "why did the role of CJCSC not work?"

 

[Blain2]

You kinda did make it seem like Utopia in the original post the latter position of "partial victory" - I already agreed with

Perhaps I did, maybe I did not articulate it well enough. The basic gist is this: If you are going to be the one and only "badmash", then wield the "Dunda" that comes with it in its entirety to get stuff done.

 

[hnn]

The second part applies to the whole of humanity, it isn't specific to the generals and it applies just the same to the uber-democrats and whatever sits in-between these two.

The second part actually reflects something very deep which is that the "bigger picture" is just a man projecting their vision as a collective one but is just a delusion - and yes the Democratic system in it's true essence negates that by picking up the bigger picture from the collective (bottom up) - in our country that isn't the case as I have already mentioned we have never had even 50% of the representative democracy ideal - it's been an Oligarchy dressed as Democracy