Army Chief tenure to reset with CDF appointment

[Meengla]

The immediate national interest - I have no disagreements with you on that but since we are discussing it I also want to think about what comes after the immediate. Is it going to be a 5 years plans kind of system or like Mao's state atrocities in the name of National Interest.

Imran himself was, behind the scenes, working with some Generals to cement his rule and those Generals' rules for ten-years but his scheming with Bajwa failed.
I have said it again and again: We all could benefit from going through the archives of Dawn.com from late 2021 through April 2022 to understand what was being devised and how that failed.

 

[Blain2]

As long as you're preaching that I'm with you I just don't agree with the iron fisted settlement of dissent because it breeds more grievances (more problems) than the one it solves.

Cost-benefit analysis needs to be done but it cannot be a situation of analysis paralysis. People have to be given equitable offsets but the overall national interests have to be serviced.

 

[hnn]

Imran himself was, behind the scenes, working with some Generals to cement his rule and those Generals' rules for ten-years but his scheming with Bajwa failed.
I have said it again and again: We all could benefit from going through the archives of Dawn.com from late 2021 through April 2022 to understand what was being devised and how that failed.

Haha yeah I know and I mentioned it before as well I think in this thread, something like "his pitched horse lost the race"

But then again I never agreed or supported what he was doing with the system either

 

[Blain2]

Imran himself was, behind the scenes, working with some Generals to cement his rule and those Generals' rules for ten-years but his scheming with Bajwa failed.
I have said it again and again: We all could benefit from going through the archives of Dawn.com from late 2021 through April 2022 to understand what was being devised and how that failed.

That "same page" and today's "same page" aren't that different. The line by a certain party that "our excrement does not smell" isn't exactly true.

Enough said. The OP by me was just a suggestion. Suggestions are free and aplenty!

 

[Jango]

Pakistani masses can be "herded" just as masses were elsewhere on a national agenda and "democracy" isn't the only panacea.

This us vs them is the root cause of every fauji fantasy.

I've been thinking for too long whether to write a long post in response to what I've read, but I'll just say, shocking to see how normal injustice has been made.

Anyways, yeh experiment bhi kar lo!

 

[Blain2]

This us vs them is the root cause of every fauji fantasy.

I've been thinking for too long whether to write a long post in response to what I've read, but I'll just say, shocking to see how normal injustice has been made.

Anyways, yeh experiment bhi kar lo!

This is not about "us vs. them". PTI isn't all of Pakistan. We should also realize that Punjab and KP politics are not the politics of all of Pakistan. If change is to be affected, it will apply to all Pakistanis.

Second, the latest turn in this thread based on what I posted in the morning was not a "moral" call. It is about the ground reality as it stands today. It is about how we could move forward with what needs to get done (it would need to get done whether IK was in office, or NS, or Bilawal or the FM sahib calling the shots).

For the last 3 years, things have been in a state of paralysis. If the power has been centralized, let's get some work done, I.e., CPEC, Dams, NAP etc.

 

[Blueishere]

I think much better than myself, those in the corridors of power (or the main man) know which issues are needing immediate action for lack of progress. I won't argue over which specific issues. I'd just ask, pick a few of great national import and execute them all the way. This is what I am preaching for with the current dispensation.

Obviously brother, we all want something to be worked on, but there is literally no incentive for the ones in powers, who is going to question them if they don't get anything done, and continue the status-quo?

For the last 3 years, things have been in a state of paralysis. If the power has been centralized, let's get some work done, I.e., CPEC, Dams, NAP etc.

These projects wouldn't revolutionize Pakistan in any meaningful way, they ignore the root problems of Pakistan, and are just makeup on a pig.

 

[Meengla]

Haha yeah I know and I mentioned it before as well I think in this thread, something like "his pitched horse lost the race"
But then again I never agreed or supported what he was doing with the system either

It might surprise some of you that I was his supporter till the very day when his Speaker of the National Assembly threw out the No Confidence Motion based on bogus assertion of 'America toppling him'. In the old PDF, on the eve of the NCM vote, I had, in fact posted an interview of Imran Khan with the anchor Imran Riaz Khan. I was confident IK would beat the NCM the next day.
And if one wonders why I place so much importance on the NCM, it was because I immediately realized the same arrogant cricketer I had known in the 70s and 80s had not changed despite ageing, and I saw how unnecessary, on top being in violation of the Const. of Pakistan, Imran's move was. His was a display of mindboggling stupidity and arrogance those days and his subsequent actions, leading to his pathetic situation now, confirms to me that I had made the right call then.
PS. My post containing that interview from April 2022 is probably still in the old PDF, if that forum's posts exist.

 

[PakAl]

I would agree with your view here.

The military, whether ruling overtly or covertly, will never will be enough on its own to be able to deliver on any such promises. Claiming that this time it will be somehow different in outcomes is mere delusion.

Powerful nations are built by its people, the flag bearers of a state, the government or military alone can not do it. Around 2008 time during the blackouts generals Mushraff claimed we should have built dams a decade before but he was in charge since 1999 and did not do it. Its just the desi mentality, no planning ahead, effective strategy, bringing nation together, working towards a cause, following rules and regulations, even simply cleanliness, queuing up or following traffic rule is not done.

 

[PakAl]

So would I, given that this is a much more realistic and nuanced position to take.

I have often argued in the past to bring out the military's role out into the open as the initial step to making it visible and accountable on the basis of actual results, and not hiding behind patriotism or religiosity for cover only when suitable.

I have also highlighted the importance of the economy above all else. Anything or anyone that can deliver some semblance of keeping the national head above the endless sea of red ink should be welcomed at this stage of the game, without exception.

However, I must caution that there is simply no substitute for properly working institutions under the rule of law defined by a Constitution that ALL must adhere to rigidly and co-operatively, while maintaining a healthy balance of checks and balances, if Pakistan is ever to become a state capable of surviving in this century, and beyond.

The military, by itself, has not, will not, and won't ever be able to do this all by itself.

The dangerous trap, into which Pakistan has fallen many times, is building beyond the second story without proper foundations and then wondering why their constructive efforts keep falling down while others are able to build higher and higher.

The solution to breaking free from this trap lies within the GHQ and in a gradual manner, like it or not. Personally, I do not have much faith in this hope ever coming to fruition, and, as they say, we must live in hope because there is no other option.

From what it looks like we are moving towards North Korea, Iran or Egypt types of hard military controlled states. They have been like this for decades and still no match for S Korea, China or Malaysia. So I understand your point unless our people suddenly change.

 

[VCheng]

Powerful nations are built by its people,

.... and that is why Pakistan is what it is today, for better or for worse.

 

[PakAl]

Just because Mr. 30% polled vote is not in power anymore doesn't mean the Parliament of Pakistan doesn't have a large people's mandate. But they are now being told, through Const. changes, to shape up, perform or else!
So that's the essence of the changes in Pakistan and I welcome the changes.

Pakistan official vote count for 2013 elections was 55%, for 2018 elections was 51% and for 2024 elections was 47%. If Imran Khan is Mr 30% that means he commands majority in the parliament and is elected by the people of Pakistan. Those 53% who didn't vote are not interested so discount them altogether. A new nick name is needed for IK lol

Regarding the changes, they are already done and we will see what happens. I am hopeful of atleast 30 provinces, each with direct elected CM or get rid of CM and only have Mayor and MNAs, we also need long term Dam policy, Cpec, Gwadar, and the rest.

 

[Corax]

I will state something controversial but it has to be said given the current landscape.

If power is to be centralized in the hands of one man in any case, as many in PTI etc. are saying, then I say one thing. The goal should be to turn Pakistan into a forward moving, hard state, and the person at the center of this has to run the ship like the founding fathers of Singapore, Malaysia, and China. Single-minded focus, not one damn bit getting in the way of these national goals and not being bothered by so called democratic chaos.

That is, to use the entire state power to accomplish national goals with no dissension being countenanced. That is, park the niceties aside, revamp the politico-social structure, bring madrassas in-line, operationalize CPEC completely, destroy the regressive industrial/agricultural practices, enforce NAP in entirety, fix the nonsensical degradation in Karachi/open its potential to trade, build the dams for our national survival, enact the defense pact with KSA, solidify military and economic ties with China by safeguarding their investments, put Afg. on notice for BLA/TTP etc. etc.

All of this cannot be done through the chaotic "democracy" veneer that we have had for years now. This would also mean no more "benevolent" behind the scenes rule which is a quasi-military supported "hybrid" dispensation. Perhaps on account of international concerns this facade will have to be managed, but it needs to have real muscle to push hard changes for the foundational restructuring of the country.

We can debate till kingdom come why or why not a representative democracy would be a better choice, my point is simply that since we are already not operating with a representative democracy, we might as well get the benefits of a unified rule without being distracted by the jamhooriat tamasha for the next 5-10 years.

You can't compare the national psyche of Pakistanis with those of Malaysia, Singapore, or China.

 

[Blain2]

You can't compare the national psyche of Pakistanis with those of Malaysia, Singapore, or China.

It is instructive at the least. Our national psyche is a scattered mess. Always has been. Will remain unless danda is applied. Case in point the behavior of expats in foreign countries.

 

[UndercoverJIX]

It is instructive at the least. Our national psyche is a scattered mess. Always has been. Will remain unless danda is applied. Case in point the behavior of expats in foreign countries.

Sir ji, Danda must be used to fix corruption, mismanagement, making sure all Departments do their assigned jobs etc. Not to control how people think and judge your performance, Danda is not to enslave......

If Danda holders are acting out of their authority and oath, then it can never work ina positive way.

Just my POV, could be wrong.