Babur-Class (MILGEM) Corvette | Updates & Discussion

[FuturePAF]

Well first things first. You have to get MDAS/MILDAS certified for CAMM-ER. The stated range of the missile is 45+ but Janes reported a while ago that CAMM (stated range 25km +) has been tested out to 60km,so CAMM-ER may infact have an actual range northwards of 80km or more. We dont entirely know.

But after MDAS certification then you could go get 8 cells per Babur. You still need to then MLU the F-22Ps at at least $65M-$80M per ship (if we look at how much is cost for Naresuan class upgrades (2 Ships upgraded with Sea Giraffe Radar, Ceros 200 CMS, two 8 cell Mk41 VLS, the quad pack boxes and missiles for ~$50-60M each) . That was in 2012. And that Naresuan didnt have a deck or SAM system that would need to be removed. It had an empty deck with little. Meaning there will be more labor in F-22p so it will be more expensive.

But still worth it IMHO, to make the F-22P relevant in modern warfare.

If the Turks can’t get the CAMM-ER to fit, hopefully they can get one of their own missiles to meet the same performance parameters and size, and be quad fitted as an alternative.

 

[ghazi52]

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[Tank131]

But still worth it IMHO, to make the F-22P relevant in modern warfare.

If the Turks can’t get the CAMM-ER to fit, hopefully they can get one of their own missiles to meet the same performance parameters and size, and be quad fitted as an alternative.

I dont think its an issue of Fitting them, its more likely an issue of allowing the integration.

1. PN Needs to seek the integration from both Italy and Turkey and be willing to buy MDAS.

2. ITALY needs to approve of the integration.

3. Either Italy or Turkey need to perform the integration.

None of this is actually difficult in my opinion. Their may be some political hurdels but in the way, not least of which is PNs own intentions.

 

[Awwad]

I dont think its an issue of Fitting them, its more likely an issue of allowing the integration.

1. PN Needs to seek the integration from both Italy and Turkey and be willing to buy MDAS.

2. ITALY needs to approve of the integration.

3. Either Italy or Turkey need to perform the integration.

None of this is actually difficult in my opinion. Their may be some political hurdels but in the way, not least of which is PNs own intentions.

I think its about PN's "goals" and what they actually want to achieve. It feels to me that PN is already completely satisfied with whatever they are getting. They are not aiming for more in foreseeable future. The most deadliest arsenal in all the on-going procurement will be the AIP subs. Which will be the true deterrence. I doubt there will be any resources for Surface fleet / different VLS or more missiles per ship at this moment. F-22Ps may get mid-life upgrade but IMO, that will also take some years from now, and probably like Baburs, single tubes for CAMM-ER at 12 missiles/ship max. I don't expect anything further.

 

[Tank131]

I think its about PN's "goals" and what they actually want to achieve. It feels to me that PN is already completely satisfied with whatever they are getting. They are not aiming for more in foreseeable future. The most deadliest arsenal in all the on-going procurement will be the AIP subs. Which will be the true deterrence. I doubt there will be any resources for Surface fleet / different VLS or more missiles per ship at this moment. F-22Ps may get mid-life upgrade but IMO, that will also take some years from now, and probably like Baburs, single tubes for CAMM-ER at 12 missiles/ship max. I don't expect anything further.

Dont disagree with your overall notion. Frankly i think a more likely F-22p update will see fm90 replaced no with a VLS but a PDMS like FL-3000n or even levent or goksur

 

[Tank131]

Turkiye’s Roketsan conducts first test-firing of LEVENT point defence missile system.

On October 10, 2024, Turkiye's primary missile manufacturer Roketsan conducted the first live test-firing of the "LEVENT" point defence missile system.
Tayfun Ozberk 11 Oct 2024

The company released footage on social media of the system’s first-ever test-firing. In the video, the launcher is shown fitted with fixed-face AESA radar arrays and an electro-optic sensor mounted. The test-firing was deemed to be successful.

Except for the video, the company didn’t communicate further about the test firing.

The LEVENT Missile-Based Close-In Weapon System is a short-range, all-weather, surface-to-air missile platform that handles target acquisition, tracking, command and control, communication, target evaluation, weapon allocation, engagement, and interception.

Its primary mission is to defend against anti-ship missiles at varying altitudes—from low-flying sea-skimmers to high-divers—traveling at subsonic to supersonic speeds, as well as other airborne threats like UAVs, hovering helicopters, and air-to-ground missiles. The system provides 360-degree coverage using both radar and electro-optical sensors.

LEVENT system will mount and launch eleven missiles, which is a derivative of Roketsan’s IIR-guided SUNGUR missiles. The missiles has a diameter of 128 mm and a range of 11 kilometers. LEVENT will be able to operate both autonomously and integrated with ship sensor systems.

The LEVENT system was unveiled at the IDEF 2023 exhibition in İstanbul. It was first showcased internationally at the DIMDEX 2024 exhibition in Qatar. The system is expected to replace RAM close-in defence system after being operational.

Another PDMS project by the Turkish defense industry is the GÖKSUR missile system. GÖKSUR, which is developed by Aselsan and TUBITAK SAGE (Turkish DARPA), will perform air and missile defense missions against threats such as anti-ship missiles, armed/unmanned aerial vehicles, cruise missiles, warplanes, and helicopters. The system is fitted with four fixed-face AESA radar arrays surrounding the gun mount and can deploy and launch 12 BOZDOGAN missiles (similar to the AIM-9 sidewinder).

GÖKSUR Close Air Defense Missile System has many features, such as the ability to destroy threats at a 360-degree angle, new generation IIR seeker guided missile, multiple target intercept capability, standalone and/or platform integrated operation, intermediate guidance with data link, and high single shot avoidance capability

So with Levent in testing and Goksur likely following soon, i suspect these will likely equip Baburs instead of Gokdeniz which may be why there is no CIWS for them yet.

 

[ghazi52]

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[Ak01]

was just bored scrolling, i stumbled on this.

Malaysias LMS design has 4 cell quadpacked KSAM.

I seriously wonder why the PN decided also not to make use of this space. Each side could easily fit 6 cells, giving them another 12. That KVLS is 3 meters long by 1.5m wide. Another 4/6 cells on each side was achievable, infact, they probably didnt even need to lengthen the hull to achieve a similar sam capacity to what they have now... Infact, with some surface level redesign, you could probably fit a crap ton of launchers on the same base ada hull.

Our threat environment calls on us to have significant magazine depth, why we are sending ships out with 12-16 missiles is beyond me, the Indians can let 16 brahmos out at a time, they'd need to be extremely lucky to get out of there alive. None of our platforms are suitably equipped to be able to handle any kind of swarm attack, what we need is magazine depth. I think KSAAM would have been alot better suited for our needs as a whole.

We could have 32-64 missiles per ship, albeit shorter ranged, these vessels are not AAW ships, the missiles are for self defense, im sure the only reason we got CAMM-ER was it was all that was available to us as its an italian funded project, ksaam seems like a great option, especially for our scenario.

Another option could have been the use of KVLS. KVLS can easily accommodate CAMM, but if not, literally a plethora of Korean missiles, again, a shorter length KVLS is present on the Malaysian design, the shroom canisters are not short either, theyre about 16-18 feet long too. Having 4-8 cells of KVLS would have done these ships wonders, once again, giving them the same or even greater magazine depth. Imagine a Babur class with 4 KVLS Cells in the front, 4 in the rear, it would be a decently effective solution to prevent swarm attacks and also if anything, give them longer range missile options via the KM-SAM.

 

[Oscar]

View attachment 90982
was just bored scrolling, i stumbled on this.

Malaysias LMS design has 4 cell quadpacked KSAM.

I seriously wonder why the PN decided also not to make use of this space. Each side could easily fit 6 cells, giving them another 12. That KVLS is 3 meters long by 1.5m wide. Another 4/6 cells on each side was achievable, infact, they probably didnt even need to lengthen the hull to achieve a similar sam capacity to what they have now... Infact, with some surface level redesign, you could probably fit a crap ton of launchers on the same base ada hull.

Our threat environment calls on us to have significant magazine depth, why we are sending ships out with 12-16 missiles is beyond me, the Indians can let 16 brahmos out at a time, they'd need to be extremely lucky to get out of there alive. None of our platforms are suitably equipped to be able to handle any kind of swarm attack, what we need is magazine depth. I think KSAAM would have been alot better suited for our needs as a whole.

We could have 32-64 missiles per ship, albeit shorter ranged, these vessels are not AAW ships, the missiles are for self defense, im sure the only reason we got CAMM-ER was it was all that was available to us as its an italian funded project, ksaam seems like a great option, especially for our scenario.

Another option could have been the use of KVLS. KVLS can easily accommodate CAMM, but if not, literally a plethora of Korean missiles, again, a shorter length KVLS is present on the Malaysian design, the shroom canisters are not short either, theyre about 16-18 feet long too. Having 4-8 cells of KVLS would have done these ships wonders, once again, giving them the same or even greater magazine depth. Imagine a Babur class with 4 KVLS Cells in the front, 4 in the rear, it would be a decently effective solution to prevent swarm attacks and also if anything, give them longer range missile options via the KM-SAM.

Korean sources for Pakistan were shut off years ago by US pressure.

 

[Quwa]

Korean sources for Pakistan were shut off years ago by US pressure.

The irony is that had the US not done that, the PAF might have gone for KF-21 (esp with the LM connection) instead of J-35A, i.e. staying within the Western domain.

 

[Ak01]

The irony is that had the US not done that, the PAF might have gone for KF-21 (esp with the LM connection) instead of J-35A, i.e. staying within the Western domain.

strange though i must say, they didnt pressure the koreans into not working with Russia, but drew the line at us

 

[Quwa]

strange though i must say, they didnt pressure the koreans into not working with Russia, but drew the line at us

It's all boiling down to keeping Pakistan's military contained as much as possible (with the exception of PN surface ships). Anything that can divide serious Indian resources from China is a no-no. Prob a reason why it'd be tough for us to even expect Western subs (though IMO the likes of Fincantieri may help with an original NRDI project as a workaround).

Perhaps the South Koreans will factor in similar ways by supplying key inputs like steel, batteries, etc.

 

[Tank131]

View attachment 90982
was just bored scrolling, i stumbled on this.

Malaysias LMS design has 4 cell quadpacked KSAM.

I seriously wonder why the PN decided also not to make use of this space. Each side could easily fit 6 cells, giving them another 12. That KVLS is 3 meters long by 1.5m wide. Another 4/6 cells on each side was achievable, infact, they probably didnt even need to lengthen the hull to achieve a similar sam capacity to what they have now... Infact, with some surface level redesign, you could probably fit a crap ton of launchers on the same base ada hull.

Our threat environment calls on us to have significant magazine depth, why we are sending ships out with 12-16 missiles is beyond me, the Indians can let 16 brahmos out at a time, they'd need to be extremely lucky to get out of there alive. None of our platforms are suitably equipped to be able to handle any kind of swarm attack, what we need is magazine depth. I think KSAAM would have been alot better suited for our needs as a whole.

We could have 32-64 missiles per ship, albeit shorter ranged, these vessels are not AAW ships, the missiles are for self defense, im sure the only reason we got CAMM-ER was it was all that was available to us as its an italian funded project, ksaam seems like a great option, especially for our scenario.

Another option could have been the use of KVLS. KVLS can easily accommodate CAMM, but if not, literally a plethora of Korean missiles, again, a shorter length KVLS is present on the Malaysian design, the shroom canisters are not short either, theyre about 16-18 feet long too. Having 4-8 cells of KVLS would have done these ships wonders, once again, giving them the same or even greater magazine depth. Imagine a Babur class with 4 KVLS Cells in the front, 4 in the rear, it would be a decently effective solution to prevent swarm attacks and also if anything, give them longer range missile options via the KM-SAM.

I think Korea could be dissuaded by US in this regard. However in the same vein, MDAS is now operational. One wonders why the PN and Turks haven't pushed for the option for CAMM-ER to be integrated with MILDAS/MDAS. It is more than capable of quad-packing CAMM-ER into a cell from a dimensions perspective. PN should ask for this. Nit sure however that Turkey would allow it though as im sure they may want PN to go towards HISAR-D RF and Siper in the future. PN should actually leverage this as a stick toward italy. Help us get it CAMM-ER Integrated into MILDAS so we can quad-pack otherwise we move on to Hisar and Siper. Hisar-D RF block 2 will be quad packed from MILDAS. When that happens, AND it is time to MLU these vessels, that will likely be the first change.

JCF should be planned from go with 16-24 Cell MDAS rather than 16 cell GWS.26. Would reserve 8 cell for medium range quad pack (CAMM-ER or HISAR) and the other 8-16 cells for Siper.