BJP-Taliban Ties and Their Implications

[r3alist]

I use Hindus loosely. Very loosely. Likely not 90% of current India. Maybe not even 95%.

I basically mean Vedic Hindus.

Indeed, you said it doc.

 

[LeGenD]

The introduction of the Taliban took out the Indian and Northern alliance threat, plus everything the Americans could do and did do.

That's the removal of well resourced hostile actors causing havoc with impunity.


This has been replaced with a different type of challenge but it's still a challenge and you could argue a potentially existential one, still a headache, the solution is not military

The assumption that the former Afghan Republic was hostile to Pakistan is false. Hamid Karzai was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban. Abdullah Abdullah was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban. Even Ashraf Ghani was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban but Pakistan's support for Taliban frustrated him and he made some bad calls, he was in a no-win situation in any case. Afghan Republic had captured and put thousands of militants in jail, it was also helping hunt TTP inside Afghanistan. Somebody suggested Intra-Afghan Dialogue as the way forward for both Pakistan and Afghanistan that would allow Taliban to be integrated in the US-backed political system of Afghanistan but Trump made a deal with Taliban and decided to close the chapter of American intervention in Afghanistan.

India simply found it easy to exploit Afghanistan - Pakistan - US tensions and have damaged Pak - US relations. Meanwhile Pakistan remains in debt trap and is denied access to advanced Western technology, and Afghanistan - Pakistan tensions continue as usual. CPEC has failed to address Pakistan's economic crisis and other challenges. US and India now have a strategic partnership that will allow the two countries to become stronger and find new avenues to do what they want to do. China will use other countries to fight its battles as well, I wonder which these will be.

The sombre reality is this: India sprung a trap for Pakistan and our strategic depth experts fell in it. I spent years in this forum to caution fellow Pakistani and drive this point home but some ridiculed me.

 

[vkdindian]

well instead of reading all that point is Pakistan played a dpouble game with USA and Afghanistan hoping to make quick and easy money from USA at cost of Afghanistani nation and its people while keeping its obsession to teach india a lesson but Afghans never had any confussion against what they wanted or saw pakistan or so called DURAND LINE

You appear to be a realist and not the r3alist.

 

[Guru Dutt]

The assumption that the former Afghan Republic was hostile to Pakistan is false. Hamid Karzai was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban. Abdullah Abdullah was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban. Even Ashraf Ghani was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban but Pakistan's support for Taliban frustrated him and he made some bad calls, he was in a no-win situation in any case. Afghan Republic had captured and put thousands of militants in jail, it was also helping hunt TTP inside Afghanistan. Somebody suggested Intra-Afghan Dialogue as the way forward for both Pakistan and Afghanistan that would allow Taliban to be integrated in the US-backed political system of Afghanistan but Trump made a deal with Taliban and decided to close the chapter of American intervention in Afghanistan.

India simply found it easy to exploit Afghanistan - Pakistan - US tensions and have damaged Pak - US relations. Meanwhile Pakistan remains in debt trap and is denied access to advanced Western technology. CPEC has failed to address Pakistan's economic crisis and other challenges. US and India now have a strategic partnership that will allow the two countries to become stronger and find new avenues to do what they want to do. China will use other countries to fight its battles as well, I wonder which these will be.

The sombre reality is this: India sprung a trap for Pakistan and our strategic depth experts fell in it.

but question is why did Pakistani establishment and so called intelligensia in the first place helped Taliban against Likes or Hamid Karzai or Abdullah Abdullah or USA led NATO forces that were keeping Afghanistan away from Talibunnies

now USA bieng a shrewed buissnessman no longer was ready to fight and keep Iran and Pakistan safe from afghan taliban when afghans and pakistanies themselfs wanted taliban rule back

why did pakistan first used USA funds to fight soviets and same fund to kill same tallibunnies and there related offoring groups and then played double game with USA & NATO trying to save them when USA wanted them all to die and why is Pakistan crying now when they are doing what they were sent to do in afghanistan and want to do same in what they always belived was greater afghanistan or Afghan lands ????

 

[KAAFIR]

The mother of the Kauravas was Persian.

Honestly, I don't know that and never read about it.

 

[r3alist]

The assumption that the former Afghan Republic was hostile to Pakistan is false. Hamid Karzai was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban. Abdullah Abdullah was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban. Even Ashraf Ghani was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban but Pakistan's support for Taliban frustrated him and he made some bad calls, he was in a no-win situation in any case. Afghan Republic had captured and put thousands of militants in jail, it was also helping hunt TTP inside Afghanistan. Somebody suggested Intra-Afghan Dialogue as the way forward for both Pakistan and Afghanistan that would allow Taliban to be integrated in the US-backed political system of Afghanistan but Trump made a deal with Taliban and decided to close the chapter of American intervention in Afghanistan.

India simply found it easy to exploit Afghanistan - Pakistan - US tensions and have damaged Pak - US relations. Meanwhile Pakistan remains in debt trap and will is denied access to advanced Western technology. CPEC has failed to address Pakistan's economic crisis and other challenges. US and India now have a strategic partnership that will allow the two countries to become stronger and find new avenues to do what they want to do.

India sprung a trap for Pakistan and our strategic depth experts fell in it.

A few things to say.


The point about the Afghan government is that whatever ties they were willing to have with Pakistan they would open more doors for India.

That would give Pakistan far more pain and resources diverted, in the very long run the entire dynamic of Pak India and Afghanistan changes

With India out, so called, you have a different set of strategic worries which are an order of magnitude lower, you also have more autonomy within Afghanistan

The question of access to Western technology and strategic alliance is simply in usas gift and Pakistan could do nothing about that, it was never on the table, it could never be influenced and frankly it has more to do with the USA than India, it's India who is resisting deeper alliance

This whole 20 years is based on US invasion decisions and the rest reacting

I don't see any trap created by India per se, it was all already a historical migraine then you add war into it

The so called failure of cpec is unrelated

The debt trap pattern was already there and set

 

[hussain0216]

The assumption that the former Afghan Republic was hostile to Pakistan is false. Hamid Karzai was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban. Abdullah Abdullah was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban. Even Ashraf Ghani was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban but Pakistan's support for Taliban frustrated him and he made some bad calls, he was in a no-win situation in any case. Afghan Republic had captured and put thousands of militants in jail, it was also helping hunt TTP inside Afghanistan. Somebody suggested Intra-Afghan Dialogue as the way forward for both Pakistan and Afghanistan that would allow Taliban to be integrated in the US-backed political system of Afghanistan but Trump made a deal with Taliban and decided to close the chapter of American intervention in Afghanistan.

India simply found it easy to exploit Afghanistan - Pakistan - US tensions and have damaged Pak - US relations. Meanwhile Pakistan remains in debt trap and is denied access to advanced Western technology and Afghanistan - Pakistan tensions continue as usual. CPEC has failed to address Pakistan's economic crisis and other challenges. US and India now have a strategic partnership that will allow the two countries to become stronger and find new avenues to do what they want to do. China will use other countries to fight its battles as well, I wonder which these will be.

The sombre reality is this: India sprung a trap for Pakistan and our strategic depth experts fell in it. I spent years in this forum to caution fellow Pakistani and drive this point home but some ridiculed me.

That's not entirely true, Pakistan repeatedly made it clear to the Afghans the threat we saw from India and Indian multiple consulates etc were double as intelligence gathering units

The afghans not only refused to respect our strategic interests but openly worked with India against Pakistan

We approached the U.S multiple times but the U.S wasn't concerned and even privately welcomed India in Afghanistan

Regardless of any issue we face with the Taliban or U.S,
The strategic threat of a a Afghan republic in cahoots with India and the U.S was simply too great regardless of the fall out.

The fall of the Afghan republic was essential from that point on and it's fall meant 20 years of Indian planning and investment was wiped out


India can try again but inside Afghanistan we will have plans to counter them

The Afghans at the end of the day will be afghans

 

[vsdoc]

Indeed, you said it doc.

If you assume (long shot extrapolation) that the current population of Iran is 90 million, of which about 60 million are Persians, the other 30 million not ancestrally native to that land and mainly permeating inwards post Islam,

Then if you assume that the split was 50:50, then that means, assuming similar fertility rates, there should be around an equal 60 odd million Vedic Hindu bloodlines among 1 billion Hindus in India today.

That is about 6%.

Two readily identifiable confounders:

The Iranic side was likely more in numbers when the split happened. Or they would have been the ones forced to migrate eastward. Towards food and water and fertile land.

And 2, the Indic side never warred beyond its borders for thousands of years like the Iranic side did. Hence losing lot fewer men. More importantly, the Indic side that migrated become the Brahmins. Who never/rarely fought.

Either way, there are around 60.5 million Brahmins in India today.

And they make up about 5% of the Hindu population.

Cheers, Doc

 

[vkdindian]

but question is why did Pakistani establishment and so called intelligensia in the first place helped Taliban against Likes or Hamid Karzai or Abdullah Abdullah or USA led NATO forces that were keeping Afghanistan away from Talibunnies

Reasons can be many but I have my own theory on this.
It is due to poor institutional culture in Paksiatn. Major strategic decisions are taken by few powerful individuals and not institutions, where dissenting voices and counter opinions can be analysed and dissected to take policy decisions.
Someone created the term strategic depth, which was lapped up by many, which has driven all the moves till now. And look where we all are.

@r3alist, my observation about the espresso/ mocha/ masala chai was not about that moment, but what went behind the creation of that moment. A display of strategic victory based on false assumptions. A symbolic gesture and not about the quality of the masala chai.

It would have been called a success, had it turned the tide in Paksiatn’s favour. Has that happened?

 

[r3alist]

If you assume (long shot extrapolation) that the current population of Iran is 90 million, of which about 60 million are Persians, the other 30 million not ancestrally native to that land and mainly permeating inwards post Islam,

Then if you assume that the split was 50:50, then that means, assuming similar fertility rates, there should be around an equal 60 odd million Vedic Hindu bloodlines among 1 billion Hindus in India today.

That is about 6%.

Two readily identifiable confounders:

The Iranic side was likely more in numbers when the split happened. Or they would have been the ones forced to migrate eastward. Towards food and water and fertile land.

And 2, the Indic side never warred beyond its borders for thousands of years like the Iranic side did. Hence losing lot fewer men. More importantly, the Indic side that migrated become the Brahmins. Who never/rarely fought.

Either way, there are around 60.5 million Brahmins in India today.

And they make up about 5% of the Hindu population.

Cheers, Doc

Well doc, very insightful, but I feel a few will disagree.... Not my quarrel but interesting.

How do you identify a real or let's say most pure Persian?I hear really not many left.

Are the mullahs reasonably Persian?

 

[KAAFIR]

I don't get this train of thought, if I indulge this train of thought I don't get why you care if it was a Hindu Atlantis there, nothing to do with you

The majority of Indians have a totally different ethnicity and bloodlines to what was there, they would be a kind of central Asian, proto Persian derivative people I guess, not you


The difference in distance from where you are to Afghanistan is enormous, your people would not have interacted with these people.

You all look different.

You are obsessed with bloodlines in one scenario, in another you just claim ownership or whatever to people who are historically alien to you.

We care about both, bloodlines and ownership. We claim both. The reason is , Hindu or Hinduism never rejects anyone from its faith on the base of bloodlines or ownership or based on anything. ..anything! We claims our civilization. You need to go more deep to Understand broadly. Islam in Afganistan is young... We claims the history before Islam there... Monuments there... N many people also has same bloodlines like North Indians. We finds relevant.
But but.. We feel the land and People in Pakistan more close to Indian than Afganistan. We culturally more close to Pakistan than Afganistan... But there more religious and political differences between Indians and Pakistanis than Afganistanis.

 

[r3alist]

my observation about the espresso/ mocha/ masala chai was not about that moment, but what went behind the creation of that moment. A display of strategic victory based on false assumptions. A symbolic gesture and not about the quality of the masala cha

Its a stupid observation, USA decided to flee Afghanistan to start wars in Europe, Pakistan reacted desperate to reassert influence, India lost it's cover so it left.

Both India and Pakistan here are price takers on American decisions and react, you focus on an espresso as if it were a crown being paraded.

 

[Guru Dutt]

Reasons can be many but I have my own theory on this.
It is due to poor institutional culture in Paksiatn. Major strategic decisions are taken by few powerful individuals and not institutions, where dissenting voices and counter opinions can be analysed and dissected to take policy decisions.
Someone created the term strategic depth which was lapped up by many and drive all the moves till now. And look where we all are.

@r3alist, my observation about the espresso/ mocha/ masala chai was not about that moment, but what went behind the creation of that moment. A display of strategic victory based on false assumptions. A symbolic gesture and not about the quality of the masala chai.

well i have totally diffrent take on it

Pakistani beurocracy and police and jeudicarry and politicians were buissy in making quick money from the loot of medicienes and medical equipment and funds and rations and dairy & meat products that were sent every year by europeans and americans for afgahan refugees

while Pakistani establieshemnt and its officers were all making huge moeny from weapons trade and drug money and the money that was send to mujahiddins for certain "missions" and upkeep ofcertain equipment and all that or most of it was lost in corruption

over a period of time almost all beurocracy and judicarry and police and policticans amd militarry officers were so involved in money making and double crossing both afghans and USA/NATO that they had built an entire nerrative and system around it which colappssed once KERRY LUGER BILL and later Salalla hapenned

and then when USA left talibunnies stopped entertaining them as there was nothing they could offer the tallibunnies to work for them and then tallibunnies decided to do what was there own agenda once it became clear to them there will be no more money bags coming from west hence they started doing the same to pakistani establieshmentwhat they were doing to US puppet govement and US& NATO forces

 

[vsdoc]

Well doc, very insightful, but I feel a few will disagree.... Not my quarrel but interesting.

How do you identify a real or let's say most pure Persian?I hear really not many left.

Are the mullahs reasonably Persian?

No one knows bro. Ethnicity grouping is our only cue in the Iranic side. They have had 3 major infusions of foreign bloodlines over the past 1400 years. Bloodline preservation and strict class/caste marriage rules etc. make the Brahmins a lot more credible as a grouping on the Indic side.

But its a theory. And the numbers match incredibly close.

Mullas (Ayatollas I'm assuming you mean) have been historically both Persian and not. It is not an ethnicity bound role or clerical hierarchy.

Cheers, Doc

 

[r3alist]

We care about both, bloodlines and ownership. We claim both. The reason is , Hindu or Hinduism never rejects anyone from its faith on the base of bloodlines or ownership or based on anything. ..anything! We claims our civilization. You need to go more deep to Understand broadly. Islam in Afganistan is young... We claims the history before Islam there... Monuments there... N many people also has same bloodlines like North Indians. We finds relevant.
But but.. We feel the land and People in Pakistan more close to Indian than Afganistan. We culturally more close to Pakistan than Afganistan... But there more religious and political differences between Indians and Pakistanis than Afganistanis.

This is deep psyhic trauma playing out.

You sound nuts.

We are all regularish people with usual life problems, that's more than enough.

However, you are pondering epoch level, civilisational reckoning from over a millennium ago, as a serious project, on a people who wouldn't even know what you mean with, but you ofcourse have ideas on how to define them.


no irony, you take it seriously.

It would be ridiculous for a comic book.