China and India - How is India viewed in China?

This thread has progressed exactly as I knew when it started. Almost all the Indian posts, from junior and senior members alike, can be summarized as follows:

Indian people: Good
Chinese people: Good if they like India, CCP operatives if they don't
Indian government: Good
Chinese government: Bad, and the root of the conflict

Once you strip away the gratuitously superfluous verbiage, all the Indian posts boil down to the view that the only thing holding back the Chinese and Indian people from holding hands and singing songs around the campfire is the evil CCP.

It is amusing to watch the thread unfold as I expected...
As human society develops, it develops many inherent laws and perceptions. To a certain extent, these laws and perceptions will confine the development of human society. If we want to continue to develop, we must break through these confinements.

When we break through these confinements, it is time for human society to rebalance. Some will choose to fight; some will choose to support. These are all part of human nature, and there is no denying it!

But we cannot give up development because of these resistances.

All human conflicts stem from information asymmetry. What we can do: collide each other's ideas and cultures to achieve the exchange of information between each other. As far as possible, we can avoid escalating conflicts to the level of war.
 
As human society develops, it develops many inherent laws and perceptions. To a certain extent, these laws and perceptions will confine the development of human society. If we want to continue to develop, we must break through these confinements.

When we break through these confinements, it is time for human society to rebalance. Some will choose to fight; some will choose to support. These are all part of human nature, and there is no denying it!

But we cannot give up development because of these resistances.

All human conflicts stem from information asymmetry. What we can do: collide each other's ideas and cultures to achieve the exchange of information between each other. As far as possible, we can avoid escalating conflicts to the level of war.

All human actions must ultimately be within the bounds of human psychology and sociology. Human interactions are complex(*); state-to-state interactions infinitely more so. There was a brief discussion earlier in this thread about Thucydides Trap and possible exceptions.

Only time will tell.

* As an aside, my favorite theory of human evolution asserts that the taming of fire was the single most important event in human evolution. Aside from the defensive, offensive, and nutritional benefits that fire brought, the campfire spurred the formation of complex societal structures which, in turn, took the art of politics to a new high. Humans had to anticipate, plan and counter-plan around what other humans might do, and this was far more complicated than planning a simple hunt against animals. (Even animals have rudimentary societies and can plan a pack hunt so that by itself doesn't require big brains.) It is politics, therefore, which gave an evolutionary impetus for the development of larger brains. Anyway, sorry for the off-topic.
 
I am saddened to read such an analysis, with its lack of depth and superficiality.

It is difficult to understand what, in my posts, conveyed to you any idea other than the Marxist roots of the CCP that might have left a major and corrosive impact on the Chinese state and the Chinese people.
Honestly, I actually want to exchange with my Indian friends on more folkloric topics such as business practices, habits of life, ethnic customs and so on. This should be an exchange between ordinary Indians and ordinary Chinese, not between the Indian government and the Chinese government, and not between the Indian army and the Chinese army.

Discussions on political issues need sufficient political theory to support them, and it is not something that can be seen clearly from the perspective of ordinary people. Until there is enough research and relevant CV, political topics are just a joke. The same is true for military topics.

However, from the time the topic was just opened, my Indian friend pointed directly to the Chinese system and the CCP, and I had to do some briefing about them first. It is not necessary for my Indian friend to understand these contents. But these elements are true of them in China. In the subsequent communication, if the influence of these elements is involved, you can look back.

Of course, I do not mind discussing political or military subjects.
 
All human actions must ultimately be within the bounds of human psychology and sociology. Human interactions are complex(*); state-to-state interactions infinitely more so. There was a brief discussion earlier in this thread about Thucydides Trap and possible exceptions.

Only time will tell.

* As an aside, my favorite theory of human evolution asserts that the taming of fire was the single most important event in human evolution. Aside from the defensive, offensive, and nutritional benefits that fire brought, the campfire spurred the formation of complex societal structures which, in turn, took the art of politics to a new high. Humans had to anticipate, plan and counter-plan around what other humans might do, and this was far more complicated than planning a simple hunt against animals. (Even animals have rudimentary societies and can plan a pack hunt so that by itself doesn't require big brains.) It is politics, therefore, which gave an evolutionary impetus for the development of larger brains. Anyway, sorry for the off-topic.
I don't usually like to describe humans and human activities in some specific framework.

In my ideology, human being is dynamic and no label or theory can describe him completely.

When someone does something bad, we cannot say that he is a ‘bad person’. We can only say that he was a ‘bad person’ when he did it. If we can find the factors that induced him to do this bad thing, after adjusting these factors, these bad things will not happen

That's the value of the existence of this topic.
 
In my ideology, human being is dynamic and no label or theory can describe him completely.

I am reluctant to reply here because it would take the thread into a tangent which is a broad topic by itself and worthy of discussion beyond a specific content (India-China).

To what extent are we just uppity animals or do we contain something special? Fascinating topic all by itself.
 
This thread has progressed exactly as I knew when it started. Almost all the Indian posts, from junior and senior members alike, can be summarized as follows:

Indian people: Good
Chinese people: Good if they like India, CCP operatives if they don't
Indian government: Good
Chinese government: Bad, and the root of the conflict

Once you strip away the gratuitously superfluous verbiage, all the Indian posts boil down to the view that the only thing holding back the Chinese and Indian people from holding hands and singing songs around the campfire is the evil CCP.

It is amusing to watch the thread unfold as I expected...
lOL, Exactly , those brainwashed people can never separate CCP and China, in their mind, the two are the same.
We Chinese never have this funny idea that a country is the same as a party, it's like tying US with republicans or democrats. Their brain had long been killed by decades long anti communism western propaganda.
Fortunately more and more young western population are changing fast in this regard, young people are more open minded thanks to increasingly popular social media where people can share their own first hand personal experience to challenge the well dominant narratives imposed by well established media tycoons like BBC and CNN.
 
The inconsistency in the logic of thinking about the study of politics between us has led us to understand some political terms in completely different ways. I can only try to explain some of your questions and points in a Chinese perspective.

China has a complete and rigorous historical record and living habits throughout its thousands of years of history. They have shaped the traditions of the Chinese people today. These traditions take precedence over the law. Or rather, many Chinese laws are based on these traditions. When the state needs to make laws that go against these traditions, it must first do a lot of emotional work to get the general public to accept the new rules from the inside. Otherwise, the Chinese will not pay any attention to these laws and will still continue to live according to these traditions.
Unlike the situation in many countries, the influence of these traditions on the Chinese is far greater than the influence of traditions on the people in other countries, and far greater than the influence of religion on the population.
Ordinary Chinese people know that there are many laws in China, but they do not care about the terms of these laws. This is because they know that what the laws stipulate is basically the same as the traditions they have in their daily lives. Even when the Mongols, Manchus, and Japanese occupied Han Chinese areas throughout history, they had to respect those traditions when they made laws in those places. For example, all Chinese know the traditional concept of ‘killing a man pays for his life’, but few know what the law says about it. It is only when we come across such things that we look up the legal provisions. Of course, society is developing. Many legal provisions are also gradually becoming new traditions for Chinese people.
As for CCP, he respects these traditions and endeavours to lead the people together towards the ideal society of the Chinese. So, it is the Chinese people who choose CCP as their leader, not CCP who is fooling the Chinese people. Compared to traditional Chinese culture, the influence of CCP is negligible. Don't forget, these CCP members, they are firstly Chinese before they are CCP members. If they want to challenge these traditions, they must first challenge themselves.
Therefore, if we try to interpret and study the Chinese Constitution, we might as well study these Chinese traditions. Ordinary Chinese don't care about what's inside the Constitution at all.
If you are interested, try to study Chinese history. China has used various state systems of today's world in its developmental history. Federalism, Constitutional Monarchy, Parliamentary System ............. The only difference is that they are called differently.

Regarding democracy and centralisation: as I said earlier, it's a dynamic property rather than a static one. To describe it more directly: today's India is a centralised state. Past or future, constitution or performance, it doesn't matter. It does now. If you compare carefully, you will see: India and China have different ways of describing and manifesting the relevant provisions of the institutions of power, but the core is the same. How the Supreme Leader is created, the scope of his powers, and the provisions for his term of office ............. The most controversial: India calls it arising from different political parties; China calls it arising from different factions. But their essence is the same, only the description is different, and they are also produced by different political groups.
So I don't think there is any substantial difference between India and China in terms of democracy and centralisation of power.

About Dr Sun Yat-sen and ROC.

To this day, Mr Sun's contribution to the development of China is still celebrated by the Chinese people. Whether Chinese or foreigners, we have no disputes when it comes to his affairs.

About ROC. In all the records in China today, the ROC before Chiang Kai-shek gained real power is objective and impartial. During the period between Chiang Kai-shek's acquisition of real power and 1949, some of the records are somewhat biased, but these biased records are being gradually corrected and many historical truths are being restored. ...... My grandfather was a senior general of the Kuomintang. Some of the historical materials collected by my family have been handed over to some research institutes, and these materials will be made public in due course, and their disclosure will change the perceptions of many people. ..... ...After 1949, the Chinese government replaced the ROC. but the people and organisations of the ROC are still recognised, they just change the way they are called.

Analysing Mr Sun and his ROC from a historical point of view. they were an inevitable presence and a necessary phenomenon in the course of Chinese history. Their ideas and ways are not suitable for building a better China. But again, they had to exist. Without them, there would be no CCP and no China today. The meaning of ‘overkill’ is: when we want to correct a deviation, we need to deviate more in the opposite direction, and after the natural rebound, it is the right direction.

When Chiang Kai-shek took over the ROC, the huge impact of traditional Chinese culture and western culture was more than he could cope with. Failure became inevitable. CCP in this period was weak, but it found its direction in this collision of Chinese and Western cultures. Success became inevitable.

As I said earlier, in the face of traditional Chinese culture, any political party or law can only conform to it. It will always move forward according to its own laws. Before it, political parties and laws can be ignored.

In essence, what you convey is that a unified centralised political force has always been the long term Chinese political edifice.

China's transition to a modern political entity (from Qing dynasty and the dynasty concept at large) had to follow that as well.

Thus the KMT and CCP situation was untenable (in fact I have read many papers analysing this), and inevitably deteriorated as it did after Sun Yat Sen, as there could only be one political authority given precedence in China, the heavenly mandate etc. One had to prevail basically as the sense longer term in China, to conform to Chinese history and sentiment. Having two or more means competing interpretation of what the nationstate even was to be.

Anyway my feeling is I understand where you are coming from, as no proper constitution was made to handle another (multi party way). China basically got stuck with set of circumstances and one legal party route was really only conclusion given this backdrop and no constitution to wield institutional power above political party, as the party is what manifested on the ground for the people and their struggles. Essentially the concept of a constitution underneath the (winning) political party, so its sole legality and execution of duties to be uncontested. Yes you get factions (and anti-factional pushes at various times from the centre like say Lenin did in USSR), but thats very different in end to multi-parties that are underneath a larger constitution that allows all of them significant latitude from each other. There are key institutional differences as well.

There is evidence both ways regarding other (East Asian) related arcs if we study the nature of political monopoly formation within Japan, Korea and of course Taiwan (ROC)...regarding their constitutions and tendencies for political expression/formation within it and the evolution of this and why. ROC is especially interesting as its KMT residual w.r.t China's history in 20th century.

One such look at ROC KMT arc I have in my archive, as to KMT own monopolisation under anti-communist Emergency...what lingers here:

Another one I have in my archive, as to general context:

Not saying I agree with any analysis 100%, but they contain elements to the opinions I've formed on the subject so far.

The PRC of course outsizes them considerably and only has partial intersection of comparison with each one. But the way CCP has charted through 20th century is not some thematic aberration all things considered, its a creature of its context and history to large degree. That I agree with you overall. The KMT after all had a major bifurcation to study regarding the war with Japan, that sullied it for the long term, so the CCP arc afterwards is inevitable to some degree just by that.

My differences may arise mostly with regards to various details regarding (especially post 1949) Mao especially, when authority was settled, and peace has prevailed for large part. But that is longer topic and only has partial relevancy to formation and nature of India-China relations in 20th century. Relations with India were certainly not wholly contingent on CCP or KMT as the full national authority. Any set of good and bad here could have happened with each.
 
About the China's external situation::

The views of the Chinese are totally different from these views of yours.

It is always known that China and the United States are fighting for supremacy. For other countries, when two giants fight, how to use this opportunity to gain the most benefits is their core idea. They will decide what to say and what to do according to their own situation. They have to be very careful and cautious in handling some issues to avoid becoming a casualty of this battle for supremacy. This is different from what we get from diplomacy and the media.

Let's try to analyse some representative countries:
Japan and South Korea: they have an alliance agreement with the United States and they have to align themselves with the United States on many policy levels. However, no country wants to keep letting other countries have total control all the time. Japan and South Korea have been trying, in various ways, to get the US to loosen or even lift its control over them, especially Japan. So, they have been actively increasing their influence in the US-China rivalry, trying to get the US to value their presence and thus loosen its control over them. (See Japan's performance in the Korean War, and Japan's economic rise as the US loosened its grip on Japan) But they've been very careful to avoid completely provoking China, and have done a lot of things privately. (Ref. trade figures between China and Japan and Korea in recent years)
Southeast Asian countries: they don't want to get involved in the hegemony, They prefer business. As for the Philippines, China doesn't care about it. every step Marcos takes forward, China will take more steps forward. He has given China a great opportunity to solve the South China Sea issue and China wants him to continue. But his political opponents can no longer tolerate him ...........
There are some countries that want to put some pressure on China to give some economic aid in exchange for their solidarity with China. They don't have any will or strength to confront China. That is all.
There are too many countries, I won't analyse them one by one ...........

Anyway, in the Chinese point of view, currently China only has the US as a strategic level opponent. When China develops to have enough power, these neighbouring countries will take the initiative to adjust their foreign policy. Against other individual countries or regions, we only study tactics.
Of course, militarily, China has been preparing for the worst. The COVID-19 incident proved China's ability to respond to national emergencies, and it gave Chinese policymakers a great deal of confidence on the issue of war. We can clearly see that after this incident, the PLA has become more aggressive and larger in its foreign military activities.

I'll come to this next a bit later. There are some interesting details to try take further.
 
I wonder how many here can appreciate the fact the relationship between these two behemoths need not be adversarial, and there is much to be gained by working together to resolve differences on the border and foreign policy, and economic growth feeding off each other's strengths.

Visionary leaders can indeed achieve such outcomes, but whether those are likely to be in power is the real question. It depends on the strategies employed to gain and retain government control in both countries.


The same is then true for the USA and China on hostility
 
Honestly, I actually want to exchange with my Indian friends on more folkloric topics such as business practices, habits of life, ethnic customs and so on. This should be an exchange between ordinary Indians and ordinary Chinese, not between the Indian government and the Chinese government, and not between the Indian army and the Chinese army.


A strange place to come for this, on a Pdf....

That's not even a defence topic really

We can look at hard defense realities and postures between the nations

During COVID, Chinese dietary habits were much discussed in India
 
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This thread has progressed exactly as I knew when it started. Almost all the Indian posts, from junior and senior members alike, can be summarized as follows:

Indian people: Good
Chinese people: Good if they like India, CCP operatives if they don't
Indian government: Good
Chinese government: Bad, and the root of the conflict

Once you strip away the gratuitously superfluous verbiage, all the Indian posts boil down to the view that the only thing holding back the Chinese and Indian people from holding hands and singing songs around the campfire is the evil CCP.

It is amusing to watch the thread unfold as I expected...


The Indians were pretty vitriolic about china during COVID, and the last border clash, it's suddenly died down but they were right up there spreading anti china hate

Now that the pressure is on them they want to chat around a camp fire with the Chinese, lol.


Ultimately, this is a defence forum right

Btw... Btw.... Chinese i have met rarely talk about themselves in civilizational terms, I thought this was discouraged within china


this fella here seems to be a wonderful projection of how Indians would like to imagine themselves talking to an average Chinese person, in grand civilizational terms....😂

It's almost like.... an Indian talking to an Indian🙄😂
 
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This thread has progressed exactly as I knew when it started. Almost all the Indian posts, from junior and senior members alike, can be summarized as follows:

Indian people: Good
Chinese people: Good if they like India, CCP operatives if they don't
Indian government: Good
Chinese government: Bad, and the root of the conflict

Once you strip away the gratuitously superfluous verbiage, all the Indian posts boil down to the view that the only thing holding back the Chinese and Indian people from holding hands and singing songs around the campfire is the evil CCP.

It is amusing to watch the thread unfold as I expected...

Ignoring this thread the opaque nature of the Chinese state leads to a lot of misunderstanding with foreign countries

As I challenged someone on another thread please name all the countries that are China's allies and friends
 
Ignoring this thread the opaque nature of the Chinese state leads to a lot of misunderstanding with foreign countries

As I challenged someone on another thread please name all the countries that are China's allies and friends


Friends? You know that does not exist in country to country relations, surely.

In big power politics, power is the currency
 
In essence, what you convey is that a unified centralised political force has always been the long term Chinese political edifice.

China's transition to a modern political entity (from Qing dynasty and the dynasty concept at large) had to follow that as well.

Thus the KMT and CCP situation was untenable (in fact I have read many papers analysing this), and inevitably deteriorated as it did after Sun Yat Sen, as there could only be one political authority given precedence in China, the heavenly mandate etc. One had to prevail basically as the sense longer term in China, to conform to Chinese history and sentiment. Having two or more means competing interpretation of what the nationstate even was to be.

Anyway my feeling is I understand where you are coming from, as no proper constitution was made to handle another (multi party way). China basically got stuck with set of circumstances and one legal party route was really only conclusion given this backdrop and no constitution to wield institutional power above political party, as the party is what manifested on the ground for the people and their struggles. Essentially the concept of a constitution underneath the (winning) political party, so its sole legality and execution of duties to be uncontested. Yes you get factions (and anti-factional pushes at various times from the centre like say Lenin did in USSR), but thats very different in end to multi-parties that are underneath a larger constitution that allows all of them significant latitude from each other. There are key institutional differences as well.

There is evidence both ways regarding other (East Asian) related arcs if we study the nature of political monopoly formation within Japan, Korea and of course Taiwan (ROC)...regarding their constitutions and tendencies for political expression/formation within it and the evolution of this and why. ROC is especially interesting as its KMT residual w.r.t China's history in 20th century.

One such look at ROC KMT arc I have in my archive, as to KMT own monopolisation under anti-communist Emergency...what lingers here:

Another one I have in my archive, as to general context:

Not saying I agree with any analysis 100%, but they contain elements to the opinions I've formed on the subject so far.

The PRC of course outsizes them considerably and only has partial intersection of comparison with each one. But the way CCP has charted through 20th century is not some thematic aberration all things considered, its a creature of its context and history to large degree. That I agree with you overall. The KMT after all had a major bifurcation to study regarding the war with Japan, that sullied it for the long term, so the CCP arc afterwards is inevitable to some degree just by that.

My differences may arise mostly with regards to various details regarding (especially post 1949) Mao especially, when authority was settled, and peace has prevailed for large part. But that is longer topic and only has partial relevancy to formation and nature of India-China relations in 20th century. Relations with India were certainly not wholly contingent on CCP or KMT as the full national authority. Any set of good and bad here could have happened with each.
We're way off on some of these concepts. As I mentioned earlier, Eastern politics and Western politics are not the same thing in terms of the understanding and application of political parties and constitutions.

If we summarize history, we will find such a pattern:
The top-level political structure of China in all periods is a triangular structure. There is a spiritual leader at the top, and some substantive officials below.

The spiritual leader is the symbol of spiritual cohesion of the whole group, and he needs to be recognized by the whole group. It has nothing to do with the way he gets the seat. If he fails to gain the recognition of the majority, he will be overthrown by the others. Therefore, how to gain majority recognition is the most important thing for him. He did not deal with any practical matters directly, he was only responsible for regulating the balance between these practical officials below him.
Substantive officials are the officials who control and execute all specific affairs of the state. They are the ones who are actually in power. But behind them are different political groups. These different political groups have always been in a state of mutual supervision and constraint. In Chinese history, this is called “party struggle”.

When the spiritual leaders are able to balance the different political groups well, China will enter a period of prosperity.
When the spiritual leaders are unable to balance the different political groups, China will begin to decline. When a political group grows too strong, The leader of this political group will become the new “spiritual leader” of the country. The political group will re-divide into different political groups, thus forming a new triangular structure.When the spiritual leader completely loses control over the various political groups, causing them to enter into a disorderly struggle, China will experience a foreign invasion or civil uprising.

The mechanism of supervision and control between these political groups is essentially a “democratic” mechanism. This structure is exactly the same as the structure of the Western societies of the past and the modern Western societies. There are just a few differences in how they are called. In the modern Western socio-political structure, the “spiritual leader”, who acts as a political balancing act, usually does things behind the scenes. Of course, there are also some “spiritual leaders” who are on the stage.

In the modern Western socio-political structure:

If there is no “spiritual leader” and the political groups are evenly matched, the country is in chaos. There are many examples of such countries in the world today. When the various factions in a country do not agree, there is a constant struggle within the country. The extent and manner of the internal struggle depends on the specifics of the country, such as its economic strength and cultural education. When one political group grows strong enough to suppress the others, it becomes the new “spiritual leader”. The country then begins to enter a period of stabilization.
If this “triangular structure” of a country is solid, the country will develop well.

For the enemies of the country, destroying the “triangular structure” of the other side is one of the best means. For example: to support a certain force through money and weapons; to influence a certain force through the dissemination of tendentious public opinion. ................ These phenomena are very common in international diplomacy.

The struggle between CCP and KMT during the ROC period (before the PRC) fits this pattern perfectly. When Mr. Sun was still alive, these two political forces did not fight. Mr. Sun was the “spiritual leader” at that time. When Mr. Sun died, the balance was upset and the struggle began.
After CCP defeated KMT and PRC replaced ROC, Mr. Mao became the new “spiritual leader” and the struggle between the various factions within CCP began. When Mr. Mao was still able to balance these struggles, they did not affect the lives of ordinary people, they were confined to a certain area, and the country was not greatly affected by these struggles. When Mr. Mao was unable (for medical reasons) to balance these struggles, they were expanded, culminating in the Cultural Revolution and the “Gang of Four” movement. In the end, the political group represented by Marshal Ye Jianying was victorious, Deng Xiaoping became the new “spiritual leader” and the country began to develop smoothly. However, in the later years of Deng Xiaoping, for the same reason, this kind of struggle arose again in China, resulting in the June Fourth Movement. These phenomena have been analyzed and summarized by modern Chinese politicians, who have made adjustments to the system in an attempt to end this vicious circle. Of course, these political reforms are exploratory and we have to take some risks.

All in all, I think that Western-style democracy and Eastern-style democracy are, in essence, completely the same, they are just differently formulated.
 
Friends? You know that does not exist in country to country relations, surely.

In big power politics, power is the currency

USA has a long list of friends. China has some too
 

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