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Chinese scientists simulate a new way to kill a Submarine using a combination of Drone, Rocket and torpedo, AI

Hendarto

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I believe they already have ASROC Yu8 and even have an export variant available . But the one they have in mind is probably a more intelligent(cooperative engagement) and much longer range than Yu 8

Chinese scientists work on powerful new ‘submarine killer’ with eye on US far into South China Sea​

  • •Researchers in Xian combine drone technology and AI to turn rocket launchers into submarine killers 200km off the coastline
  • •Computer simulations show the system is capable of getting a torpedo within two metres of a submarine two to six minutes after splashdown

Science


A nuclear submarine is cruising at a safe depth in international waters when a torpedo appears on the sonar, moving aimlessly in the distance.
A few minutes later, as if guided by an invisible hand, it begins to close in on the sub. The sonar operator hears a few more splashes from above. More torpedoes appear.

The captain is caught off guard. The typical range of a torpedo is only about 40km (25 miles). There are no military ships or aircraft nearby to serve as a launch platform. And the submarine is still hundreds of kilometres away from China’s coastline.

In this computer-simulated war game conducted by a team of scientists in northwestern China, the People’s Liberation Army locates and destroys an unfriendly submarine from a long distance with a weapon never before considered in anti-submarine warfare – a rocket launcher.

A rocket artillery system can fire a number of rocket-propelled projectiles in quick succession. Some rudimentary versions, such as those used by Hamas against Israel, are designed to randomly rain down over a large area. More advanced models, including the M142 HIMARS in the Ukraine war, can hit precise targets with guided munitions.

China is believed to have deployed a large number of long-range rocket launchers along its coastline. Some are mounted on warships.
These rockets only go after surface targets, according to openly available information.

But the team at the Unmanned System Research Institute at Northwestern Polytechnical University in Xian, led by Professor Ding Wenjun, believes that with the help of drone technology and artificial intelligence (AI), rocket launchers could become unexpected submarine killers.

Nuclear submarines spend most of their time under the surface of the water. That means they have the ability to come close to China’s coastline and launch surprise strikes on critical infrastructure, leaving little response time for missile defence systems.

The PLA has built up a large undersea listening network that extends from the South China Sea at Taiwan across to Guam. These surveillance hardware devices are connected to satellites. After receiving an alert, the Chinese military sends out a drone.
“Sending an unmanned platform directly to the mission area will not only consume a lot of travel time, but also reduce the time available for military operations,” said Ding and his colleagues in a paper published in Chinese-language journal Acta Aeronautica et Astronautica Sinica in October.

Meanwhile, a rocket launcher on standby could fire almost instantly. The rocket would have a powered flight distance of up to 200km. Then its payload fairing would open and a drone carrying a smart torpedo would separate from the rocket booster. This would continue flying to the location where the submarine had been detected just a few minutes before.
b283b75bf638f7b3488db5fc6c6d27dead2241ef.webp

Illustration of a rocket launcher sending a missile, carrying a drone equipped with a smart torpedo, up to 200km away, to then use AI to find and destroy the enemy sub. Photo: Handout

Nuclear submarines can travel at a high speed. It could be more than 10km away from the coordinates reported by satellite, meaning a conventional torpedo would have a high chance of missing the target.

In the simulation, Ding’s team took a more sophisticated approach. After dropping the torpedo into the water, the drone would start surveying the area with a magnetic anomaly detector. The detector can pick up small disturbances caused by the submarine as it moves through the Earth’s magnetic field.

As the precise coordinates of the enemy submarine would be unknown, the drone and torpedo would need to stay in contact with each other to come up with the best search strategy to find the submarine, in what could be an extremely tight time window.
Nobody knew if the method would work at all, according to Ding, whose university is currently under US sanctions. But the simulated results suggested that a single torpedo could get within two metres of the submarine two to six minutes after splashdown.

The time would depend on which unmanned platform detected the submarine first. In the simulation, if the torpedo could detect the submarine by itself, the target could be hit in less time. But mostly it was using coordinates transmitted by the drone to plan the course of interception.

The performance of the drone and torpedo used in the computer model was based on available technology, the researchers said.
This idea has been around in China for at least three years, with several teams in a race to bring it to life. But engineering challenges include building computer chips powerful enough to run the complex AI algorithm and shielding the drone and torpedo against possible signal jamming.

How to operate a swarm of submarine hunters created by multiple rocket launchers also requires further investigation.
Beijing regards the South China Sea as home water and strongly opposes foreign intervention on Taiwan. The PLA uses a strategy known as anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) to protect China’s regional interests. It is rapidly building up A2/AD capabilities, such as hypersonic missiles aimed at US aircraft carrier groups.

But US nuclear submarines, which are believed to be the quietest and most powerful in the world, can cripple China’s A2/AD strategy, according to some US think tanks.
 
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Hendarto

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China's New Missile-Torpedo May Curb U.S. Submarine Power​

The Yu-8 is an evolution in China’s naval weaponry.

by Lyle J. Goldstein

The recent revelation that Beijing has built large and numerous hangar facilities on its islets in the South China Sea is set to increase the temperature of the South China Sea cauldron yet again. I have argued before in this forum that these runway facilities are not that significant to the overall military balance, because any such airstrips (including ours in the region) are highly vulnerable to attacks by precision-guided munitions. In modern warfare, if the target can be seen, it can invariably be destroyed. Hardly any target is quite so visible as a runway and its related infrastructure. Strategists would be wiser to maintain focus on the undersea contest that has generally favored the United States and its allies.

As noted in a recent column, Chinese leaders are still far from satisfied with the capabilities of today’s Chinese submarine force. Just as important, if not more so, will be China’s continuing efforts to counter U.S. and allied submarines within any hypothetical military conflict.

It is possible that the leading Western military estimates underrate China’s improving antisubmarine warfare (ASW) capabilities. Major developments in this domain over the last several years have included ramped-up production of the ASW-optimized light frigate Type 056A, finalizing of China’s long range patrol aircraft design GX-6, as well as the first confirmed reports of deployment of Chinese seabed sensors in selected areas. This edition of Dragon Eye seeks to elaborate on this picture by summarizing a July 2016 article from Shipborne Weapons (舰载武器), a publication of the giant Chinese warship building conglomerate CSIC, that reveals the new Chinese ASW missile Yu-8 (鱼8), complete with a picture of a test launch from a PLA Navy 054A frigate in the South China Sea.

Naturally, some strategists will logically ask: “What is an ASW missile?” And experts in Chinese military development will further query why a “missile" has the Chinese character designating “torpedo” character (鱼) rather than the characters for missile (鹰击)? The answer is that the weapon is a hybrid missile-torpedo that literally joins the two capabilities into a single weapon. The chief advantage of this arrangement, of course, is to vastly expand the range and speed of the torpedo system. Yet another advantage is that the attacking torpedo system would not likely be detected by a submerged submarine until it had plunged into the water relatively close to the intended victim, limiting the reaction time of the submarine’s crew for taking evasive action and deploying countermeasures.

To be sure, ASW practitioners will note that such systems are hardly novel since both the superpowers actively developed these systems from the middle of the Cold War at Sea onward. Indeed, a substantial portion of the Chinese article represents an analysis of the successes and failures of those Cold War systems.

It explains that the United States pioneered this type of weapon in the early 1960s with the RUR-5A that could initially range out to a distance of ten kilometers—an improvement (at least with respect to range) over either depth bombs (深弹), ASW rockets (火箭助推深弹), or ship-launched ASW torpedoes (舰载反潜鱼雷.) Moscow’s earliest weapon in this domain,

the SS-N-14 is also discussed, but this review suggest that Soviet naval planners quickly realized that the weapon “actually had no good use.” (并没有那么好用)
The analysis reveals the problem that “the requirements for localization are relatively steep, so that actual combat employment of the long range weapon is not easy...” It is observed that the U.S. Navy’s UUM-125 “Sea Lance” (海长矛)

ASW missile with an effective range of 100 kilometers was discontinued during the 1990s due to high costs, and also the new focus of the United States Navy on “from the sea” (由海到陆) that emphasized littoral combat. The current U.S. Navy front line ASW missile, the RU-139, is given a low grade in this Chinese assessment. The Russian Navy’s “Cricket” (蝼蛄) SS-N-29 receives higher marks.
 

Raj-Hindustani

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May 4, 2019
5,810
3,652
I believe they already have ASROC Yu8 and even have an export variant available . But the one they have in mind is probably a more intelligent(cooperative engagement) and much longer range than Yu 8

Chinese scientists work on powerful new ‘submarine killer’ with eye on US far into South China Sea​

  • •Researchers in Xian combine drone technology and AI to turn rocket launchers into submarine killers 200km off the coastline
  • •Computer simulations show the system is capable of getting a torpedo within two metres of a submarine two to six minutes after splashdown
Him
Science


A nuclear submarine is cruising at a safe depth in international waters when a torpedo appears on the sonar, moving aimlessly in the distance.
A few minutes later, as if guided by an invisible hand, it begins to close in on the sub. The sonar operator hears a few more splashes from above. More torpedoes appear.

The captain is caught off guard. The typical range of a torpedo is only about 40km (25 miles). There are no military ships or aircraft nearby to serve as a launch platform. And the submarine is still hundreds of kilometres away from China’s coastline.

In this computer-simulated war game conducted by a team of scientists in northwestern China, the People’s Liberation Army locates and destroys an unfriendly submarine from a long distance with a weapon never before considered in anti-submarine warfare – a rocket launcher.

A rocket artillery system can fire a number of rocket-propelled projectiles in quick succession. Some rudimentary versions, such as those used by Hamas against Israel, are designed to randomly rain down over a large area. More advanced models, including the M142 HIMARS in the Ukraine war, can hit precise targets with guided munitions.

China is believed to have deployed a large number of long-range rocket launchers along its coastline. Some are mounted on warships.
These rockets only go after surface targets, according to openly available information.

But the team at the Unmanned System Research Institute at Northwestern Polytechnical University in Xian, led by Professor Ding Wenjun, believes that with the help of drone technology and artificial intelligence (AI), rocket launchers could become unexpected submarine killers.

Nuclear submarines spend most of their time under the surface of the water. That means they have the ability to come close to China’s coastline and launch surprise strikes on critical infrastructure, leaving little response time for missile defence systems.

The PLA has built up a large undersea listening network that extends from the South China Sea at Taiwan across to Guam. These surveillance hardware devices are connected to satellites. After receiving an alert, the Chinese military sends out a drone.
“Sending an unmanned platform directly to the mission area will not only consume a lot of travel time, but also reduce the time available for military operations,” said Ding and his colleagues in a paper published in Chinese-language journal Acta Aeronautica et Astronautica Sinica in October.

Meanwhile, a rocket launcher on standby could fire almost instantly. The rocket would have a powered flight distance of up to 200km. Then its payload fairing would open and a drone carrying a smart torpedo would separate from the rocket booster. This would continue flying to the location where the submarine had been detected just a few minutes before.
b283b75bf638f7b3488db5fc6c6d27dead2241ef.webp

Illustration of a rocket launcher sending a missile, carrying a drone equipped with a smart torpedo, up to 200km away, to then use AI to find and destroy the enemy sub. Photo: Handout

Nuclear submarines can travel at a high speed. It could be more than 10km away from the coordinates reported by satellite, meaning a conventional torpedo would have a high chance of missing the target.

In the simulation, Ding’s team took a more sophisticated approach. After dropping the torpedo into the water, the drone would start surveying the area with a magnetic anomaly detector. The detector can pick up small disturbances caused by the submarine as it moves through the Earth’s magnetic field.

As the precise coordinates of the enemy submarine would be unknown, the drone and torpedo would need to stay in contact with each other to come up with the best search strategy to find the submarine, in what could be an extremely tight time window.
Nobody knew if the method would work at all, according to Ding, whose university is currently under US sanctions. But the simulated results suggested that a single torpedo could get within two metres of the submarine two to six minutes after splashdown.

The time would depend on which unmanned platform detected the submarine first. In the simulation, if the torpedo could detect the submarine by itself, the target could be hit in less time. But mostly it was using coordinates transmitted by the drone to plan the course of interception.

The performance of the drone and torpedo used in the computer model was based on available technology, the researchers said.
This idea has been around in China for at least three years, with several teams in a race to bring it to life. But engineering challenges include building computer chips powerful enough to run the complex AI algorithm and shielding the drone and torpedo against possible signal jamming.

How to operate a swarm of submarine hunters created by multiple rocket launchers also requires further investigation.
Beijing regards the South China Sea as home water and strongly opposes foreign intervention on Taiwan. The PLA uses a strategy known as anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) to protect China’s regional interests. It is rapidly building up A2/AD capabilities, such as hypersonic missiles aimed at US aircraft carrier groups.

But US nuclear submarines, which are believed to be the quietest and most powerful in the world, can cripple China’s A2/AD strategy, according to some US think tanks.
1st question is that how will able to detect the submarines a 200 km away when she submerged?

If can't than rest theory is useless.... Can be only useful against the surface Targets
 

UKBengali

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1st question is that how will able to detect the submarines a 200 km away when she submerged?

If can't than rest theory is useless.... Can be only useful against the surface Targets



They have underwater listening devices located at the bottom of the oceans from the article.
 

Raj-Hindustani

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They have underwater listening devices located at the bottom of the oceans from the article.
You can't just attack if you don't have signature of the enemy submarine or able to identify.

can you just attack any submarine in international water?

And I don't think just firing rockets will be effective, similar way - you you fire in enemy aircraft - without the radar and seekers - can't be hit... It will be firing without accuracy..... Based on the last detection, success chances are less
 
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UKBengali

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You can't just attack if you don't have signature of the enemy submarine or able to identify.

can you just attack any submarine in international water?


If it comes to war, then China will just declare that any vessel within certain distance from Chinese coast will be attacked without warning.

Standard operating procedure.
 
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vikNerv

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Sounds a lot like Indias SMART anti sub missile torpedo system with two differences. Range of SMART is almost 600 km, and SMART doesn't carry a drone so the torpedo once deployed in water will have to locate the target by itself. Now I am not sure if the torpedo can be directed to a target if there are any friendly assets nearby (asw platforms). Mind you, the whole premise for both these platforms seems to be that the target sub has to be detected prior to launch. Both look quiet good tbh. Surprised others haven't worked on similar weapons systems already.
 

Shanlung

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Down under nuclear subs are doomed even before receiving them.

USA will be flogging off their subs to Down Under and
raking in their money impoverishing Aussies in the meantime
 

Raj-Hindustani

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Sounds a lot like Indias SMART anti sub missile torpedo system with two differences. Range of SMART is almost 600 km, and SMART doesn't carry a drone so the torpedo once deployed in water will have to locate the target by itself. Now I am not sure if the torpedo can be directed to a target if there are any friendly assets nearby (asw platforms). Mind you, the whole premise for both these platforms seems to be that the target sub has to be detected prior to launch. Both look quiet good tbh. Surprised others haven't worked on similar weapons systems already.

I have reservations about the tracking. These sonar might able to detect submarine, but processing the data's further tracking the submarine is more complicated.

Firing the smart torpedoes and believe that submarine will be dusted.

To me - simple way to explain - it's firing air to air missiles against the enemy aircraft without the radar lock and tracking and expect that aircraft will come under no scape zone of missile (smart seekers) and get hit
 

Shanlung

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They have underwater listening devices located at the bottom of the oceans from the article.
And the many sonar buoys under the surface of the ocean.

Even if the captain on a carrier fart, China will know even if cannot smell.

And the

Maritime Militia

The Maritime Militia, the first line of defense, counts one-hundred eighty-thousand ocean-going fishing boats and four thousand merchant[7] freighters, some towing sonar detectors, crewed by a million experienced sailors transmitting detailed information around the clock on every warship afloat. Their intelligence goes to shore bases that fuse their reports with automated transmissions from Beidou satellites and forward the data to specialists operating ‘vessel management platforms,’ collating, formatting, and sending actionable information up the PLAN command chain.

While those 180,000 ocean going fishing boats are catching fishes and squids, they are also watching and listening to the turning screws of USA carriers and naval assets. And probably reporting every second to the super computer and Chinese AI as to where the USA naval assets are and will be.
 

vikNerv

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I have reservations about the tracking. These sonar might able to detect submarine, but processing the data's further tracking the submarine is more complicated.

Firing the smart torpedoes and believe that submarine will be dusted.

To me - simple way to explain - it's firing air to air missiles against the enemy aircraft without the radar lock and tracking and expect that aircraft will come under no scape zone of missile and get hit
People don't seem to understand that weapons systems for the most part don't act independently. They are part of an eco system. The purpose of this weapon and SMART is not to identify a submarine, that's the job of the other ASW assets, aerial, surface or sub surface systems. These systems then feed information for the torpedoes and their rockets.

If you are questioning the target acquisition then that's a different matter and possibly not the scope of this weapons systems or thread.
 

Raj-Hindustani

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People don't seem to understand that weapons systems for the most part don't act independently. They are part of an eco system. The purpose of this weapon and SMART is not to identify a submarine, that's the job of the other ASW assets, aerial, surface or sub surface systems. These systems then feed information for the torpedoes and their rockets.

If you are questioning the target acquisition then that's a different matter and possibly not the scope of this weapons systems or thread.

The purpose of this weapon and SMART is not to identify a submarine, that's the job of the other ASW assets, aerial, surface or sub surface systems. These systems then feed information for the torpedoes and their rockets.

That's my whole point: these technologies are almost useless if they are not being tracked by any supporting naval asset, Once they are tracked, you can fire those smart torpedoes from a long distance.
 

silicon0000

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It's seems like a range extension kit type concept for torpedoes (200km instead of 40km) and nothing more.
 

Hendarto

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1st question is that how will able to detect the submarines a 200 km away when she submerged?

If can't than rest theory is useless.... Can be only useful against the surface Targets

Here is the link

I guess you never heard of the "Chinese underwater Great Wall" China has been building a submarine detection system since 2015 which was 10 years ago by now this system should be in place. Couple with Maritime patrol aircraft which China has plenty of by now my estimate is between 30 to 40 pieces enough to cover the East China Sea and South China Sea.
China has plenty of low frequencies ships to detect submarines each of them covering a 750-mile radius China has planted a sensor in the Marianna channel to track US submarines from Guam.

But China also working on gee-whiz technology for some years now from laser detection to conformal sonar to wake detection. So within 5 to 10 years, this technology will mature

  1. Distributed tactical surveillance: An autonomous underwater vehicle and fixed underwater sensors can monitor areas for surveillance, reconnaissance, targeting and intrusion detection systems. The underwater sensor can reach high accuracy and enable detection and classification of low signature targets. Therefore, such tactical surveillance can play an important role in maintaining maritime security. Given the monitoring capability of the sensors, it would lay the groundwork for a monitoring system underneath the South China Sea. It is also argued that, given the CSSC, one of China’s top shipbuilding and defense groups’ role in the construction of UGW, it would probably be bought by the PLA Navy.6 In such a case, the military capabilities of the project would grow.
 

Hendarto

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Conclusion

China’s new-generation of ocean surveillance ships is almost certainly designed to help (in coordination with other sensors and platforms) alleviate longstanding weaknesses in the PLAN’s ASW capability and in China’s undersea security more broadly. That so many Type 927 ships have been built so fast—six were likely delivered between 2017 and 2022—underscores the importance that Chinese military leaders place on the undersea domain and on addressing shortcomings in long-range undersea detection and target identification. The pace of construction also suggests China has successfully developed adequate long-range passive and (almost certainly) LFA sonar technologies, as well as acoustic data processing techniques. However, the PLAN’s sonar systems likely remain behind those of the U.S. and others in performance and reliability.

While strengthening China’s national defense posture is the primary motivation for building the Type 927 fleet, these ships further the PLAN’s offensive ambitions as well. SMS 2020, for example, calls for developing the ability to establish “comprehensive sea area control” on the basis of “all-weather, omni-directional, multi-dimensional, multi-band battlefield perception, target recognition, tracking, and positioning capabilities.” 115 Type 927 ships will very likely, in certain scenarios, contribute to this and related goals, such as exercising command of the sea during a conflict.
 

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