Deals for 26 Rafale-M jets, three Scorpene submarines to be signed by next month: Navy Chief

[Deino]

So ultimately your best source is a very respectful Indian analyst.... enough said....

Do you have a better source or anyone else with a statement like "we solved this issue this or that way?"

So far all I hear is "silence" or "we'll find a solution later" ... and - quite understandable - your unshakable belief in the wisdom of the military leadership! (But I could tell stories about that too!)


Ignoring problems does not solve them ... and the even funniest part of this "Hey, we finally have a contract close to signature!" is that already in 2016 - 8 years ago this was discussed!

Navy dumps LCA, plans new fighter | StratPost

Navy dumps LCA, plans new fighter | StratPost

stratpost.com

 

[kmc_chacko]

Getting back to topic

Having 62 Rafales in India is better than 36 so good move regardless of what china or Pakistan does

9 scorpene subs is better than six scorpene subs ...again regardless of neighbours inductions

In the meantime time I fully expect 80 Tejas to be delivered next five years and more Tejas to follow beyond 2030

Somebody made a really good point earlier that being that
Tejas mark 2 will be used to test Amca technology or USA ge414 engines and bigger Indian Aesa radars and next gen astra rudram missles and unmanned teaming

This will then be used in Amca which should start arriving 2035

To fill falling numbers of fighters I expect
Another 97 Tejas mark one
36/72 Rafales F4/F5...

I am really fed up with the approach of Military planners as 26 jets will not only create problems but also shortfalls.

We should have preferred having 56 jets for Navy & another 36 jets for Airforce with option of 36 for future. This would have put an end shortfall jets and delayed Tejas induction for another 5 years.

6 upgraded Scorpene instead of 3 will not only replace each and will give time & technology for Indigenous SSKs

GE engines might be delayed but they will come IAF should invest its manpower, time & money in developing Mk2 & AMCA instead of wasting time in creating hurdle for development of Tejas.

 

[Deino]

TL;DR
All fanboy BS.

I know that some people like you prefer to portray me as a critic or even an opponent of India, who badmouths everything or even just wants to harm them... quite the opposite, I am fascinated by it, I want a successful Indian aviation industry and equally successful products.

But what I don't like or even hate - and everyone who knows me knows that I am just as harsh on Chinese, Russian, Pakistani or Iranian fanboys - for whom boasting, the sheer belief in "what is presented to me" because it will be right - takes precedence over their own thinking and critical questioning.

And if you look at LCA Tejas program since decades in whatever form, trainer projects, tankers, transporters, aircraft carriers or whatever, there is simply not much substance left besides grandiose announcements and a lot of boasting, and even that is either rather mediocre, very late or available in too few units.


But of course, accusing a foreign analyst of being biased or incompetent and above all throwing personal insults at him might help this own inflated but unjustified ego, but it won't make a Tejas Mk.1A any faster available in IAF service, nor will it make the Rafale smaller for the carriers, and Tejas Mk.2 and AMCA won't be in the air sooner by insulting this "evil stupid German".

But well, if it does, then go ahead ....

 

[Pingle]

Do you have a better source or anyone else with a statement like "we solved this issue this or that way?"

So far all I hear is "silence" or "we'll find a solution later" ... and - quite understandable - your unshakable belief in the wisdom of the military leadership! (But I could tell stories about that too!)


Ignoring problems does not solve them ... and the even funniest part of this "Hey, we finally have a contract close to signature!" is that already in 2016 - 8 years ago this was discussed!

Navy dumps LCA, plans new fighter | StratPost

Navy dumps LCA, plans new fighter | StratPost

stratpost.com

You too do not have any official source confirming this issue or any official statement made by Indian navy other than your so called respected analyst....

5 to 6 billions dollars deal with foldable wing super hornets in competition and you seriously believe lift part was not checked??

You will obviously believe what Pravin sawaney types or that respected analysts say because what they say you want to believe and feel good.... there's simply no reason for me to believe what you say unless and until you provide official sources.....

 

[Yasser76]

You too do not have any official source confirming this issue or any official statement made by Indian navy other than your so called respected analyst....

5 to 6 billions dollars deal with foldable wing super hornets in competition and you seriously believe lift part was not checked??

You will obviously believe what Pravin sawaney types or that respected analysts say because what they say you want to believe and feel good.... there's simply no reason for me to believe what you say unless and until you provide official sources.....

Submarines without heavy torpedos
Major airbases still with no modern HAS
New submarines without AIP
Two seat Rafales unable to fly from carrier
LRMPAs unable to refuel from IAF tankers

"you seriously believe these things were not checked"!?

Going by form, Deino seems to be spot on.....

 

[Pingle]

Submarines without heavy torpedos
Major airbases still with no modern HAS
New submarines without AIP
Two seat Rafales unable to fly from carrier
LRMPAs unable to refuel from IAF tankers

"you seriously believe these things were not checked"!?

Going by form, Deino seems to be spot on.....

Okay provide something official about lift issue then only we will discuss..... till then its not worth discussing......
Now let's stick to topic..... shall we?

 

[Yasser76]

Okay provide something official about lift issue then only we will discuss..... till then its not worth discussing......
Now let's stick to topic..... shall we?

It is too easy embaressing you on here...

 

[Oscar]

No MKI can be stealth!

Darn thing shows up nearly the same signature levels as a large business jet

 

[Pingle]

Back to the topic please.....

I hope now IAF signs a deal for another 36 hopefully F5 versions.... even if is getting delayed because busy lines nothing much to worry for a nuclear power armed with SSBNs and now hypersonic missiles..... buy F5 upto 36 to 48..... finish MRFA drama, navy should sign another 36 for 3rd AC carrier and and focus on SSN program......

I am extremely glad to see navy is on right track and required speed......

 

[Deino]

...
You will obviously believe what Pravin sawaney types or that respected analysts say because what they say you want to believe and feel good.... there's simply no reason for me to believe what you say unless and until you provide official sources.....

You are correct, I don't have an official source, but do you really believe any official source would tell you - in case it is correct - what he hold me?

This is almost as absurd like the US demanding an official report from the PLAN to prove that NO nuclear submarine has been lost or otherwise they take it as a proof, the PLAN lost one.

 

[Oscar]

Back to the topic please.....

I hope now IAF signs a deal for another 36 hopefully F5 versions.... even if is getting delayed because busy lines nothing much to worry for a nuclear power armed with SSBNs and now hypersonic missiles..... buy F5 upto 36 to 48..... finish MRFA drama, navy should sign another 36 for 3rd AC carrier and and focus on SSN program......

I am extremely glad to see navy is on right track and required speed......

Take the hope - put it through a realism sieve - and then tell me what will happen based on the last 10 years of history in Indian procurement.

MRFA has a program champion who is making their earning and shining their pads to the Air Chief. They would not exist unless the chief and other supporters of this program in MoD did not exist.

So someone with not just higher authority but support has to come in and trash it before it goes.

Then let’s say there is the want for outright buy of F5s - that has to go through the usual channels - approvals and so on unless the same higher authority or veto power fast tracks it.

Then it’s the Navy - regardless of having the treasures of Somnath - you cannot create Rafale pilots and Rafale technicians and spares storage sites by just signing - not to mention the 3rd carrier has to go through paces and not the Vikramaditya situation where both the aircraft (mig-29k)and carrier were taking much more strain than expected and reducing expected lifecycles.

What is more realistic is that each of these purchases goes through usual 5 years cycles but also gives the services time to absorb the aircraft. Eventually Rafale will become the new M2k for IAF with 3-4 squadrons that provide a high availability, high reliability weapons system to be employed in effect wherever needed.

The scale with IN will only make it better because pilots could be cross trained and spares storage and maintenance managed together. Perhaps even taking full ToT of M88 and LRUs so unless India wants new Rafales it isn’t too dependent on France.

Everything else then has to meet that benchmark.
The biggest challenge for India right now is that while it’s taking all sorts of pushes for indigenous projects - they are all in various stages of concepts/ on hold for lack of resources or kit bashed from foreign suppliers.

You want to compete with China? Stop feeling good on quality bashing - first make every inch - from the cut of steel - to the chipset to the ejection seat to the helmet and the cloth that cleans the Heads up display in India. Then - you can feel good.

Don’t worry about copying designs or otherwise - only fools waste time on feeling guilty if their sword looks the same - a different curve or color wont change the need to be effective to cut and kill.
If the Tejas is a mini Mirage so what?
If the AMCA looks like an exact F-35 or YF-23 or KF-22 SO WHAT??!

So long as everything critical in it is built in India and it works to kill the enemy - no one truly cares.

 

[Pingle]

Take the hope - put it through a realism sieve - and then tell me what will happen based on the last 10 years of history in Indian procurement.

MRFA has a program champion who is making their earning and shining their pads to the Air Chief. They would not exist unless the chief and other supporters of this program in MoD did not exist.

So someone with not just higher authority but support has to come in and trash it before it goes.

Then let’s say there is the want for outright buy of F5s - that has to go through the usual channels - approvals and so on unless the same higher authority or veto power fast tracks it.

Then it’s the Navy - regardless of having the treasures of Somnath - you cannot create Rafale pilots and Rafale technicians and spares storage sites by just signing - not to mention the 3rd carrier has to go through paces and not the Vikramaditya situation where both the aircraft (mig-29k)and carrier were taking much more strain than expected and reducing expected lifecycles.

What is more realistic is that each of these purchases goes through usual 5 years cycles but also gives the services time to absorb the aircraft. Eventually Rafale will become the new M2k for IAF with 3-4 squadrons that provide a high availability, high reliability weapons system to be employed in effect wherever needed.

The scale with IN will only make it better because pilots could be cross trained and spares storage and maintenance managed together. Perhaps even taking full ToT of M88 and LRUs so unless India wants new Rafales it isn’t too dependent on France.
,

Agreed in India everything goes at the snails speed and ultimately nothing substantial is brought and I have myself criticized these things in many threads.... but still what is wrong to hope especially at least navy is adding something comparatively at faster rate? You are unnecessarily lecturing in this length....

You want to compete with China? Stop feeling good on quality bashing - first make every inch - from the cut of steel - to the chipset to the ejection seat to the helmet and the cloth that cleans the Heads up display in India. Then - you can feel good.

Don’t worry about copying designs or otherwise - only fools waste time on feeling guilty if their sword looks the same - a different curve or color wont change the need to be effective to cut and kill.
If the Tejas is a mini Mirage so what?
If the AMCA looks like an exact F-35 or YF-23 or KF-22 SO WHAT??!

So long as everything critical in it is built in India and it works to kill the enemy - no one truly cares.

Since you are so angrily (at least you sound like that) asking about I am comparing India with china who is making ejection sit to head up display cleaning cloth in-house Show me my one post where did I compare India with china???

I only compared chinese systems with western systems and though I agree with some of your points wrt to china I am still of the opinion that I will trust western technology over chinese technology more..... and I am sure there are many Pakistanis too who would given an opportunity and budget will walk over chinese platforms to grab western platforms....

Good for China if they are making everything in-house and appreciated but that does not mean that people cannot have different opinions or cannot compare that with western technologies....

Please do not say I ever compared India with china....

For me as long as we are able to protect our Arunachalam or Ladakh from china I am more than satisfied.... we do not need to compete them....

 

[Circadian Rhythm]

Agreed in India everything goes at the snails speed and ultimately nothing substantial is brought and I have myself criticized these things in many threads.... but still what is wrong to hope especially at least navy is adding something comparatively at faster rate? You are unnecessarily lecturing in this length....


Since you are so angrily (at least you sound like that) asking about I am comparing India with china who is making ejection sit to head up display cleaning cloth in-house Show me my one post where did I compare India with china???

I only compared chinese systems with western systems and though I agree with some of your points wrt to china I am still of the opinion that I will trust western technology over chinese technology more..... and I am sure there are many Pakistanis too who would given an opportunity and budget will walk over chinese platforms to grab western platforms....

Good for China if they are making everything in-house and appreciated but that does not mean that people cannot have different opinions or cannot compare that with western technologies....

Please do not say I ever compared India with china....

For me as long as we are able to protect our Arunachalam or Ladakh from china I am more than satisfied.... we do not need to compete them....

Don't worry about More Rafales

The way forward is Upgraded Sukhois

Sukhoi production never stopped

The New Jammers on Su 30 are very capable

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[Oscar]

Agreed in India everything goes at the snails speed and ultimately nothing substantial is brought and I have myself criticized these things in many threads.... but still what is wrong to hope especially at least navy is adding something comparatively at faster rate? You are unnecessarily lecturing in this length....


Since you are so angrily (at least you sound like that) asking about I am comparing India with china who is making ejection sit to head up display cleaning cloth in-house Show me my one post where did I compare India with china???

I only compared chinese systems with western systems and though I agree with some of your points wrt to china I am still of the opinion that I will trust western technology over chinese technology more..... and I am sure there are many Pakistanis too who would given an opportunity and budget will walk over chinese platforms to grab western platforms....

Good for China if they are making everything in-house and appreciated but that does not mean that people cannot have different opinions or cannot compare that with western technologies....

Please do not say I ever compared India with china....

For me as long as we are able to protect our Arunachalam or Ladakh from china I am more than satisfied.... we do not need to compete them....

Text doesn’t convey emotions - Im not angry rather a wry remark on why do it.

But regarding technology - Yes - western defense tech is very good but it’s no longer “ages ahead” - do you want to see an example of where that’s happening just look at Lithium ion batteries - China leads the west. The take electric cars -

Tesla is mass produced trash in my view but still great in automation , then look at Lucid - what a beautiful vehicle - excellent motor tech, handling dynamics and so on.

Yet, BYD is creating the space for similies and other companies in China are providing cars at lower price, greater production capacity and additional features . Europe is taking them - so compare that to western tech and today LM, Raytheon and Dassault are leading but their pace of innovation is slowing down whereas China is not only nipping at their heels but looking to outpace their development in some areas.

Why? Because of a shareholder mentality - not because anything has happened to American ingenuity but corporate greed has come in to slow it all down.

So while the quality (Boeing is now an exception of where its going down) is expected - China is catching up in both features and quality as well.

To assume that the 1970s F-6 with 100 hours overhaul still represents China is a mistake and to think that still having western equipment guarantees success is a MISTAKE.

India’s advantage is experience but it’s needs outpace what’s available to it at low risks and scalable costs - there is NO OTHER option but to rapidly go indigenous and there is no other option for the tax payer but to force a change in the system.

You have the luxury of not being cattle to an elite security state like Pakistanis - you have a functional democracy where these people are your servants!! Ask them, question them - see where the inefficiencies are and fix it.

Rafale is a great platform (if expensive purchase) but it’s not the next tier nor does it solve the challenges arising in some massive way.

 

[iblini]

Agreed in India everything goes at the snails speed and ultimately nothing substantial is brought and I have myself criticized these things in many threads.... but still what is wrong to hope especially at least navy is adding something comparatively at faster rate? You are unnecessarily lecturing in this length....


Since you are so angrily (at least you sound like that) asking about I am comparing India with china who is making ejection sit to head up display cleaning cloth in-house Show me my one post where did I compare India with china???

I only compared chinese systems with western systems and though I agree with some of your points wrt to china I am still of the opinion that I will trust western technology over chinese technology more..... and I am sure there are many Pakistanis too who would given an opportunity and budget will walk over chinese platforms to grab western platforms....

Good for China if they are making everything in-house and appreciated but that does not mean that people cannot have different opinions or cannot compare that with western technologies....

Please do not say I ever compared India with china....

For me as long as we are able to protect our Arunachalam or Ladakh from china I am more than satisfied.... we do not need to compete them....

All is well, you have time to witness everything just like everyone else.