Deals for 26 Rafale-M jets, three Scorpene submarines to be signed by next month: Navy Chief

[Oscar]

Yup, we went from deal "definately being sign by Modi" to now being "mentioned".

Think this deal will be quietly shelved

I think they’ll sign and procure the subs - but their own bureaucracy may again drag feet even if a “deal is signed” announcement is made.

@Nilgiri has given the best explanation for anyone to understand the “ills” of Indian procurement in terms of how purchasing is justified and it just offers too many the opportunity to go “Sir I see one little problem “ to keep adding delays.

 

[agidest]

Yup, we went from deal "definately being sign by Modi" to now being "mentioned".

Think this deal will be quietly shelved

Interesting. Why do you think that?

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

Both the deals to be publicly announced and finalized on 12th February at 1730 GMT by Modi and Macron as per official schedule

 

[Nilgiri]

I think they’ll sign and procure the subs - but their own bureaucracy may again drag feet even if a “deal is signed” announcement is made.

@Nilgiri has given the best explanation for anyone to understand the “ills” of Indian procurement in terms of how purchasing is justified and it just offers too many the opportunity to go “Sir I see one little problem “ to keep adding delays.

When it comes to subs (SSK or the new SSN that will forego operating 3 CV simultaneously apparently and sticking to 2 i.e IAC-2 replaces gorshkov with the time gap that affords for sub allocation in interim), it might be faster overall as the production capital (though needing some top up) and slots are already largely there, compared to nominal to no production lines that are there for say the AF.

 

[Justin TruDont]

When it comes to subs (SSK or the new SSN that will forego operating 3 CV simultaneously apparently and sticking to 2 i.e IAC-2 replaces gorshkov with the time gap that affords for sub allocation in interim), it might be faster overall as the production capital (though needing some top up) and slots are already largely there, compared to nominal to no production lines that are there for say the AF.

Indian MOD is prioritizing SSNs over a 3 carrier force

6 SSNs Armed with Brahmos NG and VarunAstra Torpedoes will cost around 15 Billion USD
Which is less than what a 65000 ton Aircraft Carriers along with its airwing of 36 Fighters , 10 ASW Helis and 4 AEW aircraft will cost


INS Vikramaditya can serve till 2043 if Navy decides to go in for a second major refit in 2035
That's 18 years from now

MOD says IAC2 will replace Vikramaditya.
If we are not going to operate 3 carriers , then we can take our time to order the replacement.

We can wait for certain technologies to mature , like EMALS and pump jet Propulsion .
The French are looking to replace Their Charles De Gaulle aircraft carrier in 2042, they would be more than happy to collaborate with India .

 

[Yasser76]

Both the deals to be publicly announced and finalized on 12th February at 1730 GMT by Modi and Macron as per official schedule

OK, lets come back to this post in a week or so....

 

[Yasser76]

Interesting. Why do you think that?

It's obvious that IN is now veering away from the carrier strategy, knowing full well that Chinese anti-ship ballastic missiles makes carriers too vulnerable. Rightfully so they seem to be going in for more subs.

If India will operate just two carriers it means most of the time you may well only have one free for ops, hence you may ony require a smaller carrier wing. Save the fortune spending on just 26 Rafales, flog the MIG-29Ks more...

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

OK, lets come back to this post in a week or so....

Sure.

 

[harpy1]

India does not need carrier battle groups Size of USA or what china is looking to build but id decades away from..
India is not yet a super power

For protecting it's two coastlines two carriers for fleet protection backed by land based Mki flankers ample to keep sea lanes open

26 rafales with 90% efficiency is better than 40 mig29k with 50% efficiency and availability...

Check your thunders availability those engines are nitemare service wise...

Plus rafale is one generation ahead

So deal goes thru guaranteed

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

Now France's top news agency confirms Rafale and Scorpene deals will be signed this month.

https://www.rtl.fr/actu/international/defense-l-inde-va-finaliser-l-achat-de-rafale-et-de-sous-marins-francais-7900469384

 

[Deino]

Finally!!

 

[agidest]

It's obvious that IN is now veering away from the carrier strategy, knowing full well that Chinese anti-ship ballastic missiles makes carriers too vulnerable. Rightfully so they seem to be going in for more subs.

If India will operate just two carriers it means most of the time you may well only have one free for ops, hence you may ony require a smaller carrier wing. Save the fortune spending on just 26 Rafales, flog the MIG-29Ks more...

Good points. I agree.

But I'd say there is more nuance needed.

GoI is pushing IN to go heavy on subs and not on carriers. The Navy (imo) loves the power projection capabilities and the symbolism that comes with being a CBG force. It has not been ready to acknowledge that Carriers that work for USN might not work for IN when facing an adversary like China.

Traditionally the Govt. keeps a very light hand on the military and allows them to do their stuff. I dare say that if the Govt. stops imposing its will, Navy will start reverting to its preferences.

That said, I'll wager that they will still go ahead with Rafales because they still need a capable fighter on the carrier decks (which MiG 29K is increasingly not, now that PAF is upgrading) and territorialism (they are not going to stop a shiny new toy that is months away from being signed). An example of such behaviour is the Indian Army buying 6 Apaches (yes, just 6) and creating the entire infrastructure of it from scratch just to make a point to the IAF that they too can get premium attack helis.

 

[Justin TruDont]

Good points. I agree.

But I'd say there is more nuance needed.

GoI is pushing IN to go heavy on subs and not on carriers. The Navy (imo) loves the power projection capabilities and the symbolism that comes with being a CBG force. It has not been ready to acknowledge that Carriers that work for USN might not work for IN when facing an adversary like China.

Traditionally the Govt. keeps a very light hand on the military and allows them to do their stuff. I dare say that if the Govt. stops imposing its will, Navy will start reverting to its preferences.

That said, I'll wager that they will still go ahead with Rafales because they still need a capable fighter on the carrier decks (which MiG 29K is increasingly not, now that PAF is upgrading) and territorialism (they are not going to stop a shiny new toy that is months away from being signed). An example of such behaviour is the Indian Army buying 6 Apaches (yes, just 6) and creating the entire infrastructure of it from scratch just to make a point to the IAF that they too can get premium attack helis.

Mig29K is a decent aircraft
It has recently received Indian Mission computers which has enabled it to Fire Astra BVR Missiles and Israeli Rampage A2G missiles
India is also looking to add Uttam AESA radars to Mig29ks

Main problems we face today with Mig29ks is with respect to it's performance as a STOBAR aircraft

If operated from Land
Mig29Ks outperform IAFs Mig29UPG

IAF hopes to keep it's Mig29 going till 2035, so it's unlikely the Navy will retire them before Vikramaditya

 

[Yasser76]

Both the deals to be publicly announced and finalized on 12th February at 1730 GMT by Modi and Macron as per official schedule

Well this is embaressing.

Ever get tired of your BS being called out!?

 

[Yasser76]

Sure.