European Defence News and Discussions

[BonPlan]

Both France and UK would need to increase their SSBN fleet by 8 - 10 boats.

All depends if we have to defend our own country or the whole europe.
4 subs is the very minimal to assure one ship at sea at every moment. 6 may assure 2 ships at sea at every moment. It is probably the right number to defend ourselves with some margins, in a more dangerous world.

To defend whole Europe, 8 ships each.

But the problem to defend whole europe is : who to decide to open fire? There is no political suprem leader in europe.

 

[BonPlan]

Both UK and France currently only own 4 boats each as their only nuclear deterrence, but they don't have any land based/air based nuclear deterrence like the US/Russia/China.

France has a air capacity with the combo Rafale + ASMP A (nearly 50 units, 300kt each) and in a near futur this supersonic missile will be replaced by hypersonic AS4G.

only lacks a ground to ground missile fleet. Quite easy to create as we have all the knowledge.

 

[BonPlan]

Yes, more submarines necessary. Parts of the money will come from the Germans.
Germany will increase military spending to $150 billion a year minimum. I contribute with my tax money for those nukes. Win win.

Not so easy.
Who will drive these new subs? french sailors? germans? a combined of the 2? who will be the captain? Who will give the open fire order? Who will decide the potential targets (more easy) ?

 

[Viet]

Not so easy.
Who will drive these new subs? french sailors? germans? a combined of the 2? who will be the captain? Who will give the open fire order? Who will decide the potential targets (more easy) ?

French submarines are driven by the French, French nukes will be fired and targets be decided by French president, as Macron says it. Only him. Nothing will change. The change is expanding French nuclear umbrella over Europe. The change is increasing nuclear warheads to ensure a total annihilation.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

All depends if we have to defend our own country or the whole europe.
4 subs is the very minimal to assure one ship at sea at every moment. 6 may assure 2 ships at sea at every moment. It is probably the right number to defend ourselves with some margins, in a more dangerous world.

To defend whole Europe, 8 ships each.

But the problem to defend whole europe is : who to decide to open fire? There is no political suprem leader in europe.

Probably a commander appointed by the possible future joint european armed force for each SSBN?

Not sure if UK and France would give up their nuclear sovereignty and to share with other european nations.

Also, UK still uses the Trident II and W76 from the US, and I don't think it will be sustainable in the future.

They have to either develop their own SLBM and nuclear warheads or using the existing ones from France.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

France has a air capacity with the combo Rafale + ASMP A (nearly 50 units, 300kt each) and in a near futur this supersonic missile will be replaced by hypersonic AS4G.

only lacks a ground to ground missile fleet. Quite easy to create as we have all the knowledge.

Wouldn't you decide to develop the larger strategic bomber.

The US has the B-21 raider, China will soon reveal the H-20, and its unmanned strategic bomber like the GJ-X has already conducted flight.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

French submarines are driven by the French, French nukes will be fired and targets be decided by French president, as Macron says it. Only him. Nothing will change. The change is expanding French nuclear umbrella over Europe. The change is increasing nuclear warheads to ensure a total annihilation.

Since UK gonna soon lose their SLBM and nuclear warheads from the US, and for convenience, they can ask France to give them the existing French SLBM and nuclear warheads.

Then France probably gonna use this bargaining chip and ask UK to ditch their own currency in order to support Euro.

 

[BonPlan]

French submarines are driven by the French, French nukes will be fired and targets be decided by French president, as Macron says it. Only him. Nothing will change. The change is expanding French nuclear umbrella over Europe. The change is increasing nuclear warheads to ensure a total annihilation.

As french I know that.
But if I was german or polish, would I be reassured by a umbrella managed by a foreign leader ??? (but it's already the case insie NATO : it is uncle Sam who has the key).

 

[BonPlan]

Wouldn't you decide to develop the larger strategic bomber.

The US has the B-21 raider, China will soon reveal the H-20, and its unmanned strategic bomber like the GJ-X has already conducted flight.

Far too costly for a too small number. No way for France.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Far too costly for a too small number. No way for France.

Well, a fully integrated EU has the economic size comparable to China, so it shouldn't be affordable for you.

 

[BonPlan]

Since UK gonna soon lose their SLBM and nuclear warheads from the US, and for convenience, they can ask France to give them the existing French SLBM and nuclear warheads.

Then France probably gonna use this bargaining chip and ask UK to ditch their own currency in order to support Euro.

???

UK is a old and strong ally, with a deep common history. If they are pulled out the five eyes organization I'm sure France will help them.
We can developp and produce together a next gen sub, next gen missile, next gen nuc warheads.
No € vs £ involved.

 

[BonPlan]

Well, a fully integrated EU has the economic size comparable to China, so it shouldn't be affordable for you.

EU is an economic space, not a political entity. This is the point.

 

[BonPlan]

Also, UK still uses the Trident II and W76 from the US, and I don't think it will be sustainable in the future.

The missile is indeed Trident 2, but the warheads are GB ones.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

???

UK is a old and strong ally, with a deep common history. If they are pulled out the five eyes organization I'm sure France will help them.
We can developp and produce together a next gen sub, next gen missile, next gen nuc warheads.
No € vs £ involved.

They won't abandon Canada/Australia/NZ.

If the US won't change back to its sanity in 2028, then they probably gonna pull out the remaining 3 eyes away from the US, and the 4 eyes would get closer to EU.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

The missile is indeed Trident 2, but the warheads are GB ones.

According to the open sources, the nuclear warheads that being equipped in the UK D5 missiles are the W76 from the US.

They currently don't have 100% of nuclear sovreignty like France.